Yep.. Afghanistan is the new version of the Bates Motel, the place where empires go to die.

I wonder if it took nearly 3-months for that guy to make a decision whether to check in or not.

did he use priceline?

Maybe if he took 3 months to decide, he would have gone to the Ritz-Carlton instead.

Let's see. History tells us that no foreign power has ever made a difference in how this country is run, nor have they been able to wrest control of its people from those who already control them.

Only the U.S.A. could possibly be so egotistical to think they could achieve that which none other has ever done. Except all those others...that didn't.

If we had 'stayed the course' originally begun after "9/11" we might have succeeded. At this point, however, I tend to believe the 'brass ring' has passed us by.

Is this "W's" fault? Quite likely.
Does it have to be O'bama's failed legacy? Not unless he's determined to go down 'that road' so many have traveled before and lived and learned to regret their decisions.

Maybe I am not my usual positive self today, but there is little fact out there to refute my ramblings.

Thank you for your time and attention,
Woody

Bush/Cheney knew that Afghanistan could not be won, so they kept a small force in place and focussed their efforts on the 'easy' job in Iraq, to give the gullible American people a hollow victory against the infidel Muslims. Meanwhile, the real 9/11 terrorists escaped from Afghanistan into Pakistan and are now emboldened.

After having seen our Dear Leader figuratively kiss their king's ring, no wonder they are emboldened. In the last year, Putin has also started back on the Russian Road to European domination. He recognizes something in our Leader we refuse to see...lack of b*lls.

-----------------------------

It is now O. Hussein's War, woody. Ever since he decided to essentially abandon our troops to the enemy three months ago, it became all his. That will be HIS abiding legacy...part of it, anyway. We never forgot Hanoi Jane [patooie] either. At least Bush knew how...and when...to go to war.

The Hotel where you can check in any time but you can't check out. [That'd make a good song...]

rolando states, "Ever since he decided to essentially abandon our troops to the enemy three months ago, it became all his."

You do go on, rolando.

Unlike President Bush (you'll notice I use no clever euphemisms for his name), who abandoned our troops in Afghanistan six years ago, Obama has abandoned no one. He has increased the number of troops in Afghanistan since taking office and is now on verge of further increases.

----------

Robert Gates, who has now been Secretary of Defense under both George W. Bush and Barack Obama, who was Director of the CIA under George H.W. Bush, and who has served for 27 years in the CIA and the NSC under six presidents, recently praised Obama’s approach to decision-making as the nation's commander-in-chief.

"He is very analytical," Gates told CNN. "He is very deliberate about the way he goes through things. He wants to understand everything. He delves very deeply into these issues."

Gates was diplomatic when comparing Obama to other former occupants of the Oval Office. "I'm not going to get into comparing the different presidents, Gates said. “I very much enjoy working for this one."

----------

I for one, don't see Obama's deliberations on Afghanistan as either dithering, or abandonment. He wants to get it right. I only wish the last administration had the cajones to listen to all of the facts (instead of just inventing their own) before putting our soldiers lives at risk.

This reminds me of the song "Hotel California" where you check in and can never check out, or maybe the movie "Groundhog Day" where everyday you wake-up in the hotel and it's a repeat of yesterday. I think one thing is obvious in Afghanistan, we need to figure out our goal first and strategy second, instead of the reverse as we have been doing.

That's not a euphemism, OllieH, clever or otherwise. It is a statement of fact. That is what he is...just like his compadres in Venezuela, China, N. Korea, Cuba, et al...you know, those wonderfully humane countries.

Is there a point reached with you people [plural] [starry eyed kool-aid suckers] when this many-tentacled mess we are in becomes something other than Bush's fault? How far down the slope will it end and you start taking responsibility for what you have built? You have gone back 8 years now to 1991...how about just this year?

Three MONTHS "to get it right"??? So when the nukes are flying and the bombers are en route, time to think about what to do is the answer? That one deserves the biggest ROTFLMAO there is. "When seconds count, help is only minutes away." Might as well do nothing...something at which Dear Leader excels. "Getting it right" in this fashion doesn't do our troops any good at all. Better to just shoot them out of hand and be done with it.

I now better understand the decline of the CIA in recent years. Thanks.

Lesson in irony, number 1001...

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2...

"...At a camp in the east where U.S. special forces train Afghan commandos, as many as 100 people a day troop into a clinic, where they receive basic health and dental services that hadn’t been accessible for years. The clinic has forged a bond between local residents and the military personnel who are so much a part of daily life here, said the local Afghan commander.

“The people have sensed, really realized that they are the center of gravity,” the commander told Williams.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Williams reported, insurgent attacks on the camp have stopped now that U.S. money is being spent to help the people.

The clinic, and others like it, are just one part of the American HA initiative. “HA” stands for “humanitarian assistance,” and food is another big part..."
- - - - - - - -

Imagine what could be done in THIS country for those who lack affordable access to these same basic services that are being offered free of charge to the people of Afghanistan, and how the lives of our own people could begin to be transformed as well.

Humanitarian assistance is a foreign concept to the Republicans, unless it is connected in some manner with shipping out supplies and funding a war effort. Ironic doesn't begin to describe their thought processes and defenses.

There are absolutely vacancies that exist within the brains of those who claim to be compassionate Conservatives and/or Republicans.

The sad thing, is that most of them will never admit to or even recognize the glaring hypocrisy that surrounds them on a daily basis.

Dropping 50 cents in a Salvation Army collection kettle during the holiday season assuages their guilt for another year.

Ollie, you know you are correct, but there will always be those who will talk a good game, from the safety of their armchairs of course, eager to continue sending men and women to an early death for no justifiable reason. Had our military been capable of bringing to justice, those responsible for 9/11, they would have done so by now.

It's the military brainwashing. It sticks with people throughout the rest of their lives. The United States military does not want to be viewed by the world as a failure to complete a mission. Nor would I suppose, anyone who has been brainwashed with this idiotic nonsense that our military is mighty and to be feared throughout the world.

This is and always has been Bush's war, and it will remain so until the last soldier's boots leave the ground in the Middle East. Try as many might, any attempt to stick this war on the back of President Obama, even with super glue, it will not work. Bush and the Republicans wanted a legacy and unfortunately for them, they now have one. Congratulations!!

On May 1, 2003, former President George Walker Bush stood under a banner that read "Mission Accomplished." Exactly six and a half years later, our men and women are still dying in high and needless numbers. We are no closer to finding those responsible for 9/11 than we were on that ceremonious day. This nation, as a majority, the world as an even higher majority, wants this catastrophic war to end.

I really hope that the President is contemplating a complete retreat. He wouldn't suffer politically if he made that decision. In fact, it would probably boost his poll numbers, given that 60% of Americans want us to get the heck out of the region forever.

The warmongers in our Houses would not be able to contain themselves. They would rear their ugly heads. Dick Cheney would probably and finally succumb to a fatal heart attack, and GWB would become blissfully silent for years to come.

It would be viewed by most as a happy ending to a badly written book, better put on the shelf to fill empty space, hopefully never to be pulled down and read again.

So Robert Gates was in the CIA when theirs (and European) intelligence agencies reported weapons of mass destruction being built in Iraq and trailer-transports heading out of the Iraqi desert, moving loads of ? into Syria and Iran.

Very interesting stuff. Now Gates just looovvves working with Obama. How cute. Time and History have a real funny way of shedding light on truth, lies and the folly of armchair critics. Meanwhile, the Iranians and their "nuclear project" scientists are as busy as bees.

alprova, who insists that he's not judgemental and that he never generalizes, nonetheless spewed out this judgemental generalized crap:

"There are absolutely vacancies that exist within the brains of those who claim to be compassionate Conservatives and/or Republicans.

"The sad thing, is that most of them will never admit to or even recognize the glaring hypocrisy that surrounds them on a daily basis."

"Dropping 50 cents in a Salvation Army collection kettle during the holiday season assuages their guilt for another year."

alprova, it must be horrible to go through life a sad, hateful little man with a desperate but unfulfilled need to feel superior to somebody, anybody.

Good one Clay.
I've always had commitment problems, starting with the Vietnam war and continuing through both marriages.

unɹ puɐ ʇnɔ oʇ ɹǝʇʇǝq sʇı sǝɯıʇǝɯos

Love that post, JohnnyR.

----------------------------------

To all and sundry:

Ever notice those who complain the loudest about those who defend our troops in the field have never -- or seldom -- served more than two honorable years on active duty? Some even fled the country first.

That includes Dear Leader who demonstrates almost daily that he could care less about our military troops' health, lives, and ability to wage war with something besides a musket and cannonballs, figuratively speaking.

After a bloodbath reminiscent of Chosen Reservoir and the long retreat, he MAY finally make up his weak mind and pull them home, in self-imposed shame.

Teleprompters cannot give advice so he is speechless and decision-less.

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

And some folks wonder why I would spit on his shadow, speaking figuratively.

Lightnup wrote: "alprova, it must be horrible to go through life a sad, hateful little man with a desperate but unfulfilled need to feel superior to somebody, anybody."

Sir, I'm not being hateful. The truth will stand when this world is on fire.

And I am sorry to point this out to you, but it seems that every time I grace the subject of the rich and powerful, in this case our Republican politicians, and politely point out the demonstrable fact that they are only concerned with doing anything for those who love to write them large checks, while at the same time being loathe to do anything for those who are at the opposite side of the spectrum, it touches a very painful nerve somewhere in your psyche.

Now I could make a preliminary judgment as to what that means, but that's not my style. I don't happen to know your situation or circumstance.

The fact of the matter is that we have people in this nation who are suffering, who have little or no hope, and who are considered to be human garbage by those on the right. The evidence is in their voting records and their obstruction of any legislative effort to assist those in need.

Setting aside all arguments as to who is responsible for the current economic climate, the fact is that there are people who have done nothing at all to deserve what has happened to them. 10 percent of us are without a job. Many are losing their homes, their cars, and even their families. More than a few such people have taken possession of a firearm and wiped out their families and themselves in their last, but final act of desperation, or haven't you been paying attention to the news over the past year or so?

While it's a fine thing to use taxpayer funds to do good in other nations, in some attempt to persuade the world that we are a kind and compassionate people, it's a shame and disgrace that little or nothing is done to improve the lives of our own, who are just as dire in need of assistance.

You worry about forking over more in taxes. Far too many in this country are presently worried about having something to put on their forks at all.

I don't know about you, but that bothers me more than a little bit and I have no trouble in pointing out the fact that when it comes to any discussion of Conservatives, one thing that stands out like a dark rock on a white sandy beach, is that the only thing most Conservatives care about conserving, is what is in their bank accounts.

In the 1980's the Soviets were trying to build Afghanistan too; the USA never learns from failures!

Around the middle of this year, the combined spending in both Iraq and Afghanistan to fund the war efforts hit a TRILLION dollars.

If we were not entrenched and up to our eyeballs in those wars, what else could have been done with that amount of money, forever lost now, to assist those in need in this nation?

Well, for starters, for the 35 million families who are dealing with having to live on 66% or less of what they previously earned, they could have been written checks in the amount of $28,571.43 to assist them through these hard and difficult times. That would have allow them to stay in their homes, by keeping the payments current, and feeding their families for at least a couple of years.

With 1.5 million people declaring bankruptcy each year in this country, who cite 60% of the time that medical bills are what sent them over the edge, a trillion dollars wouldn't even be needed to assist them. $19.8 billion would go a long way to keeping all of those people solvent. The average claimed in unpaid medical bills, per bankruptcy filer, stands currently at around $22,000.

If we take the conservative estimate of 25 million who are uninsured and living from paycheck to paycheck, and divide that into a trillion dollars, you will discover that these 25 million people could have their routine medical expenses paid for almost 17 years, using the current figure of what Americans pay to see a doctor and spend for maintenance medications -- $2,400 per year.

But chasing ghosts over sand drifts and into caves for eight long years was a far more important a priority. Keeping military contractors solvent takes precedence over the lives of average Americans, who just want a job, a place to call home, and to live rather simple lives.

I'm well aware of the voting count in Congress, but the fact remains that these two wars are Republican spawned initiatives, and this nation has been raped financially as a result of it. Combine this with the Republicans having coddled Corporate America for a decade and a half, virtually wiping out jobs that number into the hundreds of thousands, if not more, as well as a great portion of the retirement savings of the average American, and the picture becomes far more disgusting to look at.

Enough was enough this past November and enough is enough today as well.

I truly hope that Republicans keep up the good work of obstructing everything at all, that would improve the lives of those of us who are not on their radar screen.

They are cutting off their own noses to spite their own faces, and that is a funny thing to watch indeed. How some people think that the Republicans are going to retake this country in two or four years, is beyond all comprehension.

alprova, you have some points somewhere in there, yet the good is obscured by all the rest of the hypocritical damning of conservatives and Repubs. Does the DNC in Washington represent all Democrats in this nation? Likewise, the RINO's, the Elitists and sell-outs in no way represent most of the conservative voters in this country.

How do you know, as an armchair critic that all of us are uncompassionate, care only about our bank accounts and are set to practically rape, torture and kill everyone in this country and around the world? And you guys here accuse us of fear and anger??

The last time I checked, Dems like the Clintons have diddled and fiddled while in the WH, bombed out Serbs and their cities and churches-to save the Muslim (Albanians), signed away trade agreements with China that we are seeng today how wonderfully those worked out, made numerous personal investments with Saudia Arabia and the UAE to the tune of huge profits in THEIR bank acounts today.

Then there is the small matter of Barney Frank, Pelosi, Harry Reid, Chris Dodd, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Edwards, Al Gore, Al Franken, the Feinsteins...on and on. All profiteers, carpet baggers, ambulance chasers, some of the most corrupt, perverted players and their Lobbyists in Washington.

We won't even go into Obama's corrupt, insidious crowd again here. Seems to some of us you're a little short on the facts when it comes to your people and a little too, dare I say hatefully biased when it comes to those who don't share your 'values'. Could you be projecting possibly?

----------

canaryinthecoalmine writes, "So Robert Gates was in the CIA when theirs (and European) intelligence agencies reported weapons of mass destruction being built in Iraq and trailer-transports heading out of the Iraqi desert, moving loads of ? into Syria and Iran."

----------

No, actually Robert Gates retired from the CIA in 1993. In 1999 he served as the Dean of the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A&M University. A few years later, he was named President of the whole university. He reluctantly left that post in 2006 when President Bush begged him to come back to DC to clean up the mess left by Donald Rumsfeld.

Canary's comment illustrates something interesting.

Robert Gates is a man who has now served as Secretary of Defense under both a Democratic and Republican administration. He's served in either the CIA and the NSC for 27 years, under six presidents, is respected on both sides of the aisle, and has received rave reviews for his leadership from the career military within the Pentagon.

But, since Secretary Gates had the audacity to say something nice about President Obama, canary goes on the attack- recklessly impugning the man's abilities (without any research to back up the remarks).

That's very odd. In the future, you should really try not to be such a knee-JERK!

rolando writes, 'That's not a euphemism, OllieH, clever or otherwise. It is a statement of fact. That is what he is...just like his compadres in Venezuela, China, N. Korea, Cuba, et al...you know, those wonderfully humane countries."

What is it with conservatives who can't seem to refer to the president by name.

Such juvenile name-calling not only demonstrates a total lack of respect for the president, but for the debate as well. Your ad hominem tactics don't really help you make a point. It really only serves to diminish whatever point you're trying to make.

First of all, Ollie dear, instead of answering the FACTS I pointed out in my first comment, you jumped on my one question re: Gates. It was a question that I could have easily researched myself but I wanted to see if I got any real answers. All you did is prove all my points and you just had to call me a "jerk".

Now, toonie-fan, there is proof that not only do you guys engage in the most hateful, immature name-calling here, but you all need to get off of your high horses and remember how you addressed Bush, Reagan et al. Obama to many of us is a power-hungry usurper, a narcissist and an underminer of this nation. He has no respect from us and never will until the Office of the President, which we do respect, has an individual elected to it that does honor to the position and cares about the whole country, not just those who agree with him.

Personally, I don't care what you intimidators call me, it is obvious to most rational, decent people that many of you guys tout the Leftist party line, don't research and vet your own guys/gals and hurl insults and vile trash at us all day long. The truth will out and the last laugh is coming.

GOWER

Why, the enemy is loud; you hear him all night.

FLUELLEN

If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating
coxcomb, is it meet, think you, that we should also,
look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating
coxcomb? in your own conscience, now?

Henry V
Act 4, Scene 1 -- The English camp at Agincourt
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/henryv/henryv...

That last post was inspired by the tit-tatting on this blog.

***

Now back to topic:

'When you're lying alone in your Afghan bivvy...': British soldier re-writes Rudyard Kipling poem in damning attack on conditions

By Ryan Kisiel
Last updated at 11:47 PM on 04th August 2009
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...

Alprova writes,

"The fact of the matter is that we have people in this nation who are suffering, who have little or no hope, and who are considered to be human garbage by those on the right. The evidence is in their voting records and their obstruction of any legislative effort to assist those in need."

What makes you think that conservatives only vote regarding a single issue? If that were the case, then conservatives could accuse you of being baby killers (MURDERERS)using the same thought process.

Your post are little more than the rants and raving of a very angry person who is very single minded. You have little regard to the real issue regarding electing a person for a position. It is character. A person with good character will more likely make better choices and decisions. Our President lacks "good character". Therefore, I will have a hard time trusting him until he proves my opinion of him wrong.

And about the war, at least we have not had an attack on our soil since 9/11. It is only my opinion but I believe that is in a big part due to our presence in Afghani-stan (as Clay puts it). Say what you will about Bush, I believe he did a fine job with what he had to work with. Yes he made mistakes, but you and I would as well in the same situations.

It seems that Clay's cartoon is very timely. See below.

****

First, Silence the Whistle-Blower -- The United Nations' shameful complicity in this year's corrupt Afghan elections.

By Christopher Hitchens -- SLATE
Posted Monday, Nov. 2, 2009, at 12:10 PM ET

"If the time ever does come when we look back on our intervention in Afghanistan as a humiliating debacle, this past weekend may well be identified as one of the moments when the calamity became irreversible."

http://www.slate.com/id/2234333/

****

The Afghan election: a five-star debacle

With the UN's reputation in tatters and Washington in denial over Abdullah's exit, Obama must turn this round or look like a loser

Simon Tisdall
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 1 November 2009
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...

****

Karzai handed second term after Afghan election run-off cancelled

From Times Online
November 2, 2009
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo...

rolando and canary,

I would agree that I have seen name calling from all political corners.

With the apparent non-controversial nature of Clay's most recent cartoon, it seems that the pack here has decided to pick at each other.

As a small tangential diversion, I hope that the two of you would induldge a request of mine: let me know if you think there are any genuine good qualities that President Obama possesses. Does he have any redeeming qualities?

If you are curious, you can ask me to return the favor regarding someone in the conservative camp.

Thanks in advance.

My guess is that Obama will announce more troops for Afghanistan AND some sort of a withdrawal plan at the same time. He knows that this war weakens America economically and spiritually.

Our last eight years in Afghanistan has produced three principal losers so far:Afghanistan,Pakistan and the United States.

Well, the telephone line was fixed and I finally am able to post the contents of 2 e-mails I received several weeks ago from a new aquaintnce and an old friend. I want to post them to make sure that those of you who accused me of being far left rather than being an independent Independent would take more note of my stance. C:-)

They will, I hope, follow closely on my next posting in the order they were received.

I've read up on the cartoons I've missed, but...I'm glad I'm back on the site.

For my Conservative Pals

This pretty much describes our Country today.
If a conservative doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one.
If a liberal doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat.
If a liberal is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.

If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat his enemy.
A liberal wonders how to surrender gracefully and still look good.

If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a liberal is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

If a black man or Hispanic are conservative, they see themselves as independently successful.
Their liberal counterparts see themselves as victims in need of government protection.

If a conservative is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.
A liberal wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a conservative doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.
Liberals demand that those they don't like be shut down.

If a conservative is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.
A liberal non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced. (Unless it's a foreign religion, of course!)

If a conservative decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.

A liberal demands that the rest of us pay for his.

If a conservative slips and falls in a store, he gets up, laughs and is embarrassed.

If a liberal slips and falls, he grabs his neck, moans like he's in labor and then sues.

If a conservative reads this, he'll forward it so his friends can have a good laugh.

A liberal will delete it because he's "offended".

If a conservative doesn't like someone, they pin a name on that person and get Rush to put it on the air so everyone will know.
If a liberal doesn't like someone, they might want to argue, but will usually turn away and ignore that person.

Conservatives are very good at word-craft and labels.
Liberals usually seem too disorganized to come to a consensus on naming anything.

Conservatives are ones who don't esteem those who read history and other such studies and are thus wont to repeat old history over and over again and again. It's easy to be ignorant, and a group of ignorant people are very much alike - know-nothings and not as smart as they think they are.

A group of liberals, who tend to be more scholarly, know there are many sides to issues, but are all agreed that we must search out the ones that will improve our lot over what we had in yesteryear.

It all gets down to the nitty-gritty of what it means to be a conservative or a liberal. Conservatives want to maintain the status quo and do things the "proper" way - the way their grandparents did things. Don't rock the boat. These are our imperfect rules in society, but imperfect they may be we must follow them. The English epitomize the conservative "proper" ideology.

Liberals believe there is always a better to do something, and after many unsuccessful attempts (for which the conservatives blame them!), a new way comes out. Liberals wanted to throw off the divine right of English kings and monarchies, and America was formed. America is founded on liberal and liberating principles. And what does Jesus say? Was Jesus a liberal or a conservative? "Throw off the mantle of the old ways - the New Testament."

Provocatively argumentative Conservatives wrap themselves in the Bible just as the English did in 1776 with the divine right of kings saying that "only they are following God's way. Conservatives are trying to highjack Christianity. Will it come back to haunt them?!

Clara, you are trying to stir the pot, aren't you?

I won't pick all of these apart, but to use one as an example:

"If a liberal is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.
If a conservative is homosexual, he keeps it to himself and whomever is in the next bathroom stall."

Omission:

If a conservative is opposed to a woman's right to choose,then he/she might go to extremes to prevent a woman from chooseing abortion.

A liberal might might have the same opposition,but would respect the decision of the principal party to make that decision.

alprova wrote: "How some people think that the Republicans are going to retake this country in two or four years, is beyond all comprehension."

It is only beyond comprehension to those with very limited comprehension skills whose heads are stuck in the sand (or more likely one of their own orifices). Your vitriol and class-envy is blinding you to the fact that Americans do not want larger government, do not want this or any healthcare plan shoved down their throats, do not want to be forced to pay for abortions or medical care for illegal aliens (which are STILL in some versions), do not want yet another bloated entitlement program that will end up costing 3 times more than the politicians told us it would, do not want the higher taxes that come from constantly enlarging the non-productive portion of the population that the producing portion must pay for, do not want unelected communists and other radicals setting government policy, do not want an unelected czar telling executives at private firms what they can or cannot make, do not want big government telling us what to eat, what to drive, what medical treatment we can or can't have, do not want a President who spends more time aplogizing for our country, playing golf and basketball than he does consulting with the General that he himself put in charge of Afghanistan, do not want a President who sides with Chavez and Castro against democracy in Honduras and, most of all, do not want a President being elected by ignorant, totally uninformed people who vote based on catchy slogans and bumper stickers rather than even a remedial understanding of our Constitution and the issues facing our country.

nurseforjustice wrote: "What makes you think that conservatives only vote regarding a single issue?"

I don't. I think there are many issues that Conservatives vote down any time they are on the table.
- - - - - - - -
Then you added the following: "If that were the case, then conservatives could accuse you of being baby killers (MURDERERS)using the same thought process."

With all due respect, you have no idea where I stand on that subject. I am an accountant. I am not a politician. I don't vote on bills that allow or restrict abortions. And given that I have never paid for any woman to have an abortion, I am hardly a "baby killer."

But, I do have an opinion on the subject and I will be happy to offer it.

I do not think that abortion should ever be performed strictly as a means of birth control, but I will vote against any politician who would vote to prevent an abortion of a female who has been raped, a victim of incest, or when the life of the mother is in grave danger if the pregnancy were to continue.
- - - - - - - - -
"Your post are little more than the rants and raving of a very angry person who is very single minded. You have little regard to the real issue regarding electing a person for a position. It is character. A person with good character will more likely make better choices and decisions. Our President lacks "good character". Therefore, I will have a hard time trusting him until he proves my opinion of him wrong."

I really don't get why people think I am "angry." I don't get angry very easily, and it's real hard for people to gauge anger through written words. I'm rather mellow, but quite opinionated. But angry? Nope.

That aside, I find our current President to have far more character and class than any of the past three Presidents combined. Reagan wasn't perfect, but the man had a way with words, and I liked him immensely, even though I now see where he went wrong politically.
- - - - - - - - -
"And about the war, at least we have not had an attack on our soil since 9/11."

That is strictly a matter of luck and I am quite the realist in understanding that no President on the planet has or could do a thing to prevent any attack on the people of this nation, if someone is determined to do so. This country is like a big block of swiss cheese. There are so many holes that people can slip through, that it's not even funny. The proof of that is in how many illegals we have in this nation.
- - - - - - - - -
"Say what you will about Bush, I believe he did a fine job with what he had to work with. Yes he made mistakes, but you and I would as well in the same situations."

Bush was talking about Saddam Hussein while he was running for President. There was no way that he was going to waste his stint as President and not go after the man who attempted to assassinate his father.

I will go to my grave with the belief that many of our men and women died horrible deaths, settling a score for the Bush Family.

Oh Clara, Clara, Clara, where does one begin?

"Conservatives are very good at word-craft and labels.
Liberals usually seem too disorganized to come to a consensus on naming anything."

Liberals simply change the name (Nancy Pelosi - let's call it the "consumer option" instead of the "public option" and maybe the stupid people won't know the difference.)
_______________________

"Liberals wanted to throw off the divine right of English kings and monarchies, and America was formed. America is founded on liberal and liberating principles."

Which CLEARLY proves that today's liberals are completely out-of-tune with the principles upon which this country was founded. Liberating principles do not in any way correlate with huge government-run entitlements, government control over your medical treatment or whether you can say a prayer in school.

______________________________

"Liberals wanted to throw off the divine right of English kings and monarchies, and America was formed."

And those same "liberals" would be appalled to see that today's liberals are intent on turning our government into the same government-controlled, subservient citizenry oligarchy from which they fled to this continent.

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"Liberals believe there is always a better [way] to do something, and after many unsuccessful attempts (for which the conservatives blame them!), a new way comes out."

Another, more accurate way to phrase this is, "liberals will continuously scheme, manipulate and undermine the system (George Soros anyone?), ignoring multiple rejections and years of defeat indicating that their "better ideas" are not embraced by the majority, until they finally are able to fool enough people into letting them force their agenda on everyone else."

...and who would the liberal Jesus bomb?

Liberal Jesus would turn Joe Biden into a mute, just to relieve us all from regularly crying out, "Oh jesus, did Joe really just say that?"

Lightnup wrote: "It is only beyond comprehension to those with very limited comprehension skills whose heads are stuck in the sand (or more likely one of their own orifices)."

Am I supposed to get mad now?
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"Your vitriol and class-envy is blinding you to the fact that Americans do not want...<snipped>"

That's not what the polls are indicating. Personally, by the time that the 2010 elections take place, this country is going to be riding on that roller coaster to recovery, despite anything and everything that the Republicans attempt to do to derail it, and not many people will rock that boat to vote in a Republican. Mark my words Sir. Republicans will not dominate the Houses, nor pick out the china for the White house for at least a decade, if not longer. Who knows? This could be the first year of the next 39 years.

Look...I don't know how I can get across to you that I am not envious of a soul. I KNOW what money does to people. I do not now, nor have I ever aspired to being anything more than a person with a comfortable level of income and a little extra to tide me over during tight times.

By many people's standards, I am rich. I was out of a job for seven months. Unable to find what I wanted, I had the resources to fund another venture into the world of self-employment and so I went out and created a job for myself. The man upstairs never closes without opening another one.

Had I ever been a person who wanted to be truly rich, I could have done it very easily over my lifetime. It's just not me.

What this boils down to is rather simple. You'll never understand someone like myself and I'll never understand someone like yourself. I found out the hard way and in the blink of an eye what is really important in life.

And it sure isn't being rich, powerful, or even successful as it may be viewed by some.

Looking back, I consider what happened to us to have been a blessing from above, as difficult as it was to go through, and as hard as that may be to understand. I don't ever want to repeat the experience, but I do value it as a very difficult life lesson.

Take that for what you will, and as always, I'll never be able to do a thing about any opinion you form about myself.

And I'm sure not going to get mad when you attempt to be offensive.

alprova prognosticated, November 2, 2009 @ 8:48 p.m.: "Mark my words Sir. Republicans will not dominate the Houses, nor pick out the china for the White house for at least a decade, if not longer."

Words marked and saved, to be re-posted when proven to be totally incorrect. Assuming Obama Communications Czar does not prohibit expressing anything but pro-Obama sentiments in the media between now and 2012.

Remember Joe, "You Lie!!" Wilson?

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/...

It seems he has decided to become critical of the President for not responding sooner to the shortage of H1N1 vaccine.

The only problem with his criticism, is that "Wilson joined 95% of Republicans and voted against [a bill in June of this year], which contained special funding to combat H1N1 both domestically and internationally."

"Wilson has been personally touched by the H1N1 virus. Last week, he sent an email to his district announcing his wife, Roxanne, had been diagnosed with the swine flu and urging his constituents to get vaccinated."

Karma has a tendency to catch up with people, eventually. Too bad his wife is the one suffering at the moment.

"Wilson says he plans to get vaccinated himself, but "only after the majority of Americans" have received the inoculation..."

Well...isn't THAT special?

Well, moonpie, President Obama is half-black so that particular ceiling is broken. If he turns out to be foreign-born or otherwise a non-citizen, that one is gone too. [Schwarzenegger for Prez??]

Off-hand I really can't think of any truly redeeming features he has...although he does care for his girls. Most of the good in him I would say must lie in his private life and not the political. The parts we don't see. Remember, every public thing he does no matter how small is political in nature. The private is hidden with no press or cameras allowed. No teleprompters, perhaps??

Tell us what redeeming features you see in Glenn Beck or failing that, an easier one...Gov Palin.

Lightnup

Good one...A mute Joe Biden would be good for America.

Healthcare reform, most don't approve:
November 2, 2009
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c...
"The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 42% now favor the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s down from 45% a week ago but unchanged from two weeks ago."

"Fifty-four percent (54%) now oppose the legislative effort, up three points since last week."

"Seventy-three percent (73%) of liberals support the plan, but just 18% of conservatives agree."

"Only 23% of all voters Strongly Support the plan while nearly twice as man (44%) are Strongly Opposed."
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President's approval ratings, most don't approve:
November 2, 2009
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c...
"The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 27% of the nation's voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty percent (40%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -13 (see trends)."

"Overall, 46% of voters say they at least somewhat approve of the President's performance. Fifty-two percent (52%) disapprove."
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Keep on living in that dream world alprova

Even so, toonfan, "Dear Leader" is neither a label nor a euphanism...it is a factual description. He is more like a Communist than a capitalist...although like all Communist leaders, he enjoys and revels in -- and restricts access to -- the advantages offered by capitalism. His oft-touted education and unproven birthplace, for instance. Not that those two matter any longer...it is just what makes him Dear Leader.

Thanks rolando,

I'll try to tackle both.

First let me say that I appreciate that your Obama praise was not a backhanded compliment. All Rolando detractors should take notice of that.

As for Palin: she clearly loves her country. She believes America is Awesome. She can inspire me on that level. She sticks to principles, too. I believe she is genuine.

Glenn Beck..... I confess I don't know much about him since I don't watch his show regularly. However, I have seen him. I will say that he is very entertaining. He speaks eloquently. He has piercing blue eyes. He clearly articulates a point of view differrent from my own, and shows me how many people think, even though they think differrently than me. I will say that Glenn Beck is smarter than me. He has not yet persuaded me, but he seems smarter than me.

On a personal note, I think it's a good exercise to occassionally recognize positive attributes in people you oppose. Forums like this can be dehumanizing: which is destructive by nature.

Even though you and I often disagree, it's nice that we remind each other that we share common goals and admire common good attributes.

Lightnup wrote: "Words marked and saved, to be re-posted when proven to be totally incorrect. Assuming Obama Communications Czar does not prohibit expressing anything but pro-Obama sentiments in the media between now and 2012."

Aw...now don't go and try to insert some odds into the mix.

You know, I thought it was interesting that the President took off at midnight last Wednesday night to be on hand when the remains of 18 of our military personnel were delivered to Dover AFB.

A very sad affair to say the least. It wasn't the fact that Obama was there nor that the media was allowed to film the transfer that peaked my interest.

What DID catch my attention was a little blurb offered by a reporter the next day, who mentioned that during the seven years after Former President Bush ordered our military to start chasing ghosts, neither he, nor Dick Cheney EVER went to Dover AFB, and in those same seven years, no member of the media was allowed to film or photograph those caskets being taken off the planes.

Now I know what the obvious response will be. It was a matter of respect for the families of the dead. Yet amazingly, President Obama had no problem in getting permission from ALL 18 of the families to allow him and the media to be there that night.

Given that they sent those men and women to their deaths, Former President Bush AND Dick Cheney should have greeted every one of those caskets when they arrived in Dover during those seven years.

And Rolando would SPIT on President Obama's shadow?

Bush and Cheney are great and brave men when it came to playing Commander-In-Chief, but apparently they were quite spineless when it came to witnessing a very distinctive and permanent aspect of the aftermath of their decisions.

I wonder if anyone has what it would begin to take, to spin this one 180 degrees to defend either of the two.

alprova, despite your predictably knocking Republicans, the bill passed and the Democrats still screwed up getting the vaccine to the American public. And they want to control the entire health care system? Yikes.

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Remember Hillary Clinton excoriating Bush in 2004 for not caring about Americans when there was insufficient vaccine during the last swine flu episode?
http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/hillary_f...
"New York Senator Hillary Clinton is blasting the Bush administration for the flu vaccine shortage, despite her own role in causing the crisis with her health care reforms in the 1990s."

""They're more interested in tax cuts for the rich than for flu shots for everyone who needs them," Clinton railed Monday afternoon at a press conference at New York's Ryan/Chelsea-Clinton Community Health Center."

""This administration has their priorities wrong," she added. "And we've really paid a big price for their negligence." But according to the Wall Street Journal, though Hillarycare as a whole crashed and burned in 1994, the former first lady was able to change the laws governing the manufacture of vaccines."

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Remember John Kerry excoriating Bush in 2004 for not caring about Americans when there was insufficent vaccine during the last swine flu episode?
"http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/20/9955/6434
Democrats have seized on the vaccine shortage to accuse the administration of being unable to protect Americans - from either illness or terrorism. "If you can't get flu vaccines to Americans, how are you going to protect them against bioterrorism?'' Senator John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate, asked in an interview with National Public Radio. "If you can't get flu vaccines to Americans, what kind of health care program are you running?"..."

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Remember Chuck Shumer railing about the Feds failing to protect against vaccine shortages?
http://schumer.senate.gov/new_website/re...
"Instead of taking steps to prepare for such an outbreak, the federal government sat on its hands for another year and let two drug companies have sole control over how much vaccine to produce for the nation. We have to put solutions for faster and wider production of the flu vaccine in place for the future and we have to deal with the immediate crisis by finding supplies from abroad."

Apparently, Shumer failed to follow through on his "we have to's."
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They're all strangely quiet right now, aren't they?

I had hoped you would enjoy the comments I posted. Yes! It was probably a prank but I didn't write them. They were genuine e-mails I received within a few days of each other. I just posted them.

Of course I forgot the quotation marks. I apologize. (A little bit.) And I still haven't corrected my inclusions of
probably incorrect vowels.
Goodness gracious the posts aroused the blood pressure of the "Conservatives. and some Independents." C:-)

I had a good laugh at the layout of the Republicans outside a DMV. They urged me to pick up some material. One brochure had a large picture of Pres. Obama with a mustache like Hitler. In another pile were excerpts and reprints of the opinions of La Rouche. It was a bit confusing. The layout was presumably to promote the Republicans for State Offices but I didn't notice anything relating to the election.

Obama is not a socialist, communist, or radical. If you think that, then you're probably a radical yourself, who can't see a middle-of-the-road politician for what he is.

oh yeah, and ack go umm Afghanistan. People like to say no power has ever succeeded in Afghanistan. Now prove it. Come on people. For all the people who like to say that, I know that only a fraction of them actually read that much history.

Lightnup wrote: "alprova, despite your predictably knocking Republicans, the bill passed and the Democrats still screwed up getting the vaccine to the American public. And they want to control the entire health care system? Yikes."

Do you understand at all how silly that remark is?

To the best of my knowledge, the President and the Democrats do not produce the H1N1 vaccine, or any other medication for that matter. They do not set up the supply lines. They do not administer it to the public.

It was a SPECIAL funding bill, to PAY the costs of getting the vaccinations to the public as quickly as possible.

By your own admission, the bill passed, but it was not with any assistance at all by the 95% of the Republicans, who attempted to obstruct it just like everything else that has been introduced in this Congress, meant to help average Americans.

The simple reason that there is a shortage is due to the limited amount of supply to a very high demand for the vaccine.

Joe Wilson, and I suppose you too, will grasp at the slimmest of straws in an attempt to lay any issue at all at the feet of the Democrats and the President, and will say..."See? It's ALL your fault."

Good grief....

Moonpie- You did a much better job of lauding the conservatives that rolando listed than he did in his feeble attempt to compliment President Obama.

Rolando admires Obama because he's 'half-black'? What does that mean? And he admires him for the qualities he exhibits when nobody is around and therefore we don't know what they are? That's utterly ridiculous.

The only real compliment rolando listed, the one actual quality he claims to admire about him is that he loves his daughters. But seriously, who doesn't love their children? That's like saying he admires him because he bathes regularly.

I won't give rolando the credit that moonpie so graciously does. That was an utterly pathetic attempt at listing the redeeming qualities of the president, and just goes to prove toonfan's point that conservatives are so jaundiced in their view of President Obama that any sense of rationality has been discarded entirely.

It really is quite depressing.

Well, OllieH, he's half-white too. That make you feel better? Point is, he broke a ceiling. Good for him. We didn't need that particular one.

Ever hear of abusers, OllieH? They come in all stripes. Ever see the physical and mental damage those you say "love their children" do to their wives/children on a regular basis? I have...way too often. A man who truly loves his children certainly has a positive aspect.

I also believe he is in awe of, perhaps even fears, his wife a bit. To some THAT would be a positive aspect...

So what wasn't true in what I said [to moonpie]? So give us what YOU see as positive aspects of Gov Palin/Glenn Beck.

Truth be told, moonpie, I don't watch Glenn Beck either. His name was picked solely because most liberals detest him so. Good to hear some positive things about him. Gov Palin has many, as you pointed out. I would vote for her for Prez in a heartbeat...and watch another ceiling crash.

Continuing the photo-op story at Dover AFB last week.

Dear Leader did not need permission of the 18 families to be in attendance during the transfer home of the coffins. He is CinC, after all.

What he DID need was permission from EACH family to film/tape/photograph the transfer of the remains of THEIR soldier. He did NOT gain permission of ALL families as was reported...only those who were actually filmed.

Incidently, Bush rightly refused to make a public spectacle of so private, so emotional, so grief-stricken a moment as seeing one's family member brought home...not carrying his shield but carried upon it.

Dear Leader, on the other hand, did it with bugles blaring, lights flashing, full press corp in attendance -- and solely for political reasons...which is the norm for a Chicago politician.

For those reasons and for his lack of care for our field troops and their families in general, yes, I would indeed figuratively spit upon his shadow...of the man not the Office.

alprova wrote: "To the best of my knowledge, the President and the Democrats do not produce the H1N1 vaccine, or any other medication for that matter. They do not set up the supply lines. They do not administer it to the public."

To the best of my knowledge, President Bush and the Republicans did not produce H1N1 vaccine, either. But that didn't stop Kerry, Hillary, Shumer et al from whining about how little regard the Bush administration had for vulnerable Americans based on the vaccine shortage in 2004.

Now we have the administration that CARES. You'd think, being the only ones capable of showing compassion and empathy for sick people (according to you), the Obama White House would be better at covincing companies to create more vaccine more quickly. In fact, I'm surprised Obama didn't just have the government buy the company..."for the good of the country," of course. The Dem's in Congress certainly would have approved it.

alprova wrote: "That aside, I find our current President to have far more character and class than any of the past three Presidents combined."

As someone else alluded to, if there was even the slightest possibility that our current President had any class, it was completely negated by his "all about me" photo op stunt at Dover. He should have shown up alone and insisted on keeping it out of the news. THAT would have demonstrated class, but I doubt that option would have even crossed his narcissistic mind.

jackattack wrote "Obama is not a socialist, communist, or radical. If you think that, then you're probably a radical yourself, who can't see a middle-of-the-road politician for what he is."

jackattack's been smoking crack.

@Lightnup

Don't be silly. Lots of far left liberals would be parading in the streets if Obama were actually any of those things you think he is. But that's not the way it is going down. Listen to left-wing radio or read left-wing blogs for a while, and you'll see: the far-left feels that he's turned his back on the left. To quote one, "Obama is not a liberal. He's not even a progressive." Do you think liberals would be saying things like that if they weren't disappointed?

You're so far to the right, apparently, that you've lost all sense of the landscape. That's living on the fringe for ya.

Rolando weighed in with his excuse for Former President Bush, with, "Bush rightly refused to make a public spectacle of so private, so emotional, so grief-stricken a moment as seeing one's family member brought home...not carrying his shield but carried upon it."

That definitely a 180 degree spin of the matter, as I expected it would be spun when I brought it up. Bush "rightfully" refused? I'm not even going to touch it. It's the most laughable thing you have ever written, and proof that you will go to any length to defend the indefensible.

"Dear Leader, on the other hand, did it with bugles blaring, lights flashing, full press corp in attendance -- and solely for political reasons...which is the norm for a Chicago politician."

Clearly, you haven't read any article written by those who accompanied the President on that night. The man made no announcement that he was going and the families were notified one hour prior to his arrival. During the transfers, there was complete silence, with one exception. The click of the cameras was all that could be heard. There was not so much as one word spoken by a soul on that tarmac.

The President met privately with all the families in a room where no press was allowed.

You're lying (again) and you know it.

Say what you will, but President Obama, last Wednesday night, made one of the most Presidential of decisions that he will ever make. Any doubts I EVER had about the man have been completely erased.

And I hate to break it to you, but there are 18 families right now who probably feel the same way I do too.
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"For those reasons and for his lack of care for our field troops and their families in general, yes, I would indeed figuratively spit upon his shadow...of the man not the Office."

Well guess what? You'll never have the chance to do it and in case you haven't noticed, not many people give two hoots what you think Rolando. You can't even break even when you comment in this forum, which indicates clearly, that your opinions are not considered to be useful or very welcome at all.

But of course, I'm supposed to be dismayed and am supposed to huddle in fear that you are part of this illustrious "majority" that I keep hearing about...right?

More untruths from alprova...a master of deception and misdirection. Those who accompanied Dear Leader on his Dover photo-op included his toadies and the [news flash!] press corp or their equivalent! You expect them to disagree, maybe. Should they do that their heads would roll.

You were there on the tarmac along side Dear Leader, of course...how else would you know all that detail. Or was it the fully and carefully reviewed and edited video/photos... Yeah, right. Make it up as you go along, dude.

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You obviously don't know the meaning of the word, "figuratively" when paired with an action verb, my child. Although I dare say I have been physically much closer to a future POTUS than you could ever hope to be [one might say, "within spitting distance"]. [In your case, mentally impaired persons are excluded from close contact with high government figures...unless bearing bills of no lower than $1,000.]

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If I ever stoop to worrying about popularity anywhere/anytime, little one, my mentors would groan in despair. Those are things only liberals worry themselves sick over. You tremble at the thought of being outside the pale and scramble mightily to "regain" the rabble's support no matter what it takes. [Lies, usually.]

Count the total votes cast on any one post and then count the liberals. That is what your popularity vote is all about.

----------------------------

Your class envy is self-consuming, ever-present, and mentally debilitating...but that's OK. That's the norm for liberals. Luckily we have a few un-norm liberals here [excluding you, of course.]

Rolando offers: "You obviously don't know the meaning of the word, "figuratively" when paired with an action verb, my child."

Metaphorical or not, your quest to prove that you can be offensive and disrespectful apparently has no limit.
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"Although I dare say I have been physically much closer to a future POTUS than you could ever hope to be [one might say, "within spitting distance"]. [In your case, mentally impaired persons are excluded from close contact with high government figures...unless bearing bills of no lower than $1,000.]"

Given your track record of parting with the truth, I seriously doubt that you are anything more than a legend in your own mind.
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"If I ever stoop to worrying about popularity anywhere/anytime, little one, my mentors would groan in despair."

But of course. The internet is filled with masters of the trollish arts, who sit behind their computers day in and day out -- flexing their imaginary six-pack abs, typing with their envious Hulk Hoganesque arms, occasionally glancing at their bottles of Viagra sitting on the desk, to give them that little boost of confidence and motivation.

You Sir, are indeed one of their finest students.
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"Your class envy is self-consuming, ever-present, and mentally debilitating...but that's OK. That's the norm for liberals. Luckily we have a few un-norm liberals here [excluding you, of course.]"

I hope you won't be too upset if I don't go off in a corner somewhere and cry for an hour because you consider me to be "mentally debilitated."

Contrary to your unpopular belief, I'm not just a liberal. I'm quite human, and very much in touch with my compassionate side, and don't you forget it.

jackattack wrote: "Don't be silly. Lots of far left liberals would be parading in the streets if Obama were actually any of those things you think he is. But that's not the way it is going down. Listen to left-wing radio or read left-wing blogs for a while, and you'll see: the far-left feels that he's turned his back on the left. To quote one, "Obama is not a liberal. He's not even a progressive." Do you think liberals would be saying things like that if they weren't disappointed?"

1. I've listened to left-wing radio and read left-wing blogs. Couldn't stomach the intense level of hatred and intolerance. Had to quit. If hate crime laws applied to talk radio, there would be no left-wing radio.

2. The reality of politics is that even a leftist radical like Obama realizes he can't fulfill his agenda all at once. He has to throw a bone to the moderates and even the conservatives once in a while if he has any hope of a second term (which, frankly, he does not have). Does it mean he's not a Marxist radical? Nope, just means he's a realist and undertsands he can only "fundamentally transform America" in measured sips rather than one huge gulp.

alprova, in a surprising moment of frank self-assessment, wrote: "The internet is filled with masters of the trollish arts, who sit behind their computers day in and day out -- flexing their imaginary six-pack abs, typing with their envious Hulk Hoganesque arms, occasionally glancing at their bottles of Viagra sitting on the desk, to give them that little boost of confidence and motivation."

Good for you alprova. They say you can't begin to fix a character flaw until you admit you have it. You're on your way!

To lump all your complaints into one package, alprova, here it is.

Your thought processes, viewpoints, class-envy, and opinions in general are immature, pie-in-the-sky-ish and outright naive; in a word...childish. I simply address you as such.

But they are your thoughts, etc and you must live with them. Good luck with that.

I am sure others are bored with our interchanges but I can do this for days...your flaws run that deep.