published Saturday, June 30th, 2012

The Official Seal

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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dude_abides said...

Uh oh. The rednecks will be cranking up their 'trolling' motors.

June 30, 2012 at 12:40 a.m.
fairmon said...

Fishy looking seal

June 30, 2012 at 1:03 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Didn't the Supreme Court declare in Church of the Holy Trinity vs United States that the US is a Christian nation? (Not that the authors of Dred Scott, Plessy, Korematsu, Roe, and Sabelius share inerrancy with the Holy Bible, of course.)

Is there any way for those damnable atheists (repent, please!) to say "Shut up" politely? Or without imposing their point of view, in contrast to other points of view--without imposing their religion?

God's Kingdom is like a tree in which birds nest, abusing twigs and making a mess, and the tree puts up with this. Would you rather be an atheist in Hamilton County or a Christian in North Korea? Would you rather be an atheist in Hamilton or an atheist in North Korea, where that point of view governs? If you'd rather be in HC, you are admitting that semi-Christian governance (we have lots of romm for improvement, of course) excels atheistic government. So why impose Stalin's religion on us?

June 30, 2012 at 3:32 a.m.
Yano said...

Nobody should impose their religion, or lack thereof, on anybody. That is why government should be neutral and not pray for me. My tax-supported, constitutional representatives should not pray to Jesus or deny Jesus, they should just not pick sides.

The commissioners can pray all they want, but it is arrogance to pray on behalf of other people when not all of them are believers, or believers in the same way.

The tone of those who want the Commission to pray aloud proves that they DON'T want government to be neutral in matters of religion, and DO want government to pick sides, to bless one religion over others, establish it, and anyone who doesn't like it is supposed to "stick their fingers in their ears." That's unamerican.

Dominionists like AndrewLohr who want to turn America into a theocracy are contemptible and dangerous to freedom.

June 30, 2012 at 4:12 a.m.
photopinkpet said...

It seems like that already....what happened to the separation of church and state??? I believe that anyone & everyone has the right to believe whatever religion that they want to but that the state and laws should not be dominated or controlled by one religion or religious group. Its already screwed up that the laws/state are skewed by the individuals religion that they can't be just and non bias. we are looking at going back to the dark ages or to salem were people are persecuted for being of a different religion. Look how smart that was..........plus wasn't this county founded on the beliefs of freedom of religion!???!!! Not, be a part of our religion or else......

June 30, 2012 at 4:13 a.m.
EaTn said...

With the European history of abuse of religion/government alliances firmly in their mind, our founding fathers wisely wrote in the separation of religion from government into our Constitution. Based on the arrogance of some current local,state and national political officials I can see how wise and fore-thinking our founding fathers were.

June 30, 2012 at 5:12 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Andy, why impose any of these fairy tale religions on us. You believe that stuff, I'm sure the Aztecs, Incas, the ancients believed in sun gods, fire gods, just as ignorantly as you belive your chosen cult. So why don't you just 'quietly' shut up.

June 30, 2012 at 5:58 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Andrew - please read your Bible.

Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom was not of this world. In so doing, Jesus made a clear distinction between God's realm (the Kingdom of truth) and Pilate's realm (a kingdom of power). Now matter how humans construct government, those governments are kingdoms of power (even though such governments have been ordained by God - even North Korea, if you are going to read Romans 13 literally).

Having said that, what would our government look like if we were to earnestly strive to model that government on God's Kingdom of truth. The books of Galatians and Ephesians would be pretty good guidebooks. The "libertarian" Jesus would remind us that, for freedom, He has set us free - free to love and to serve our neighbor. And, the book of Acts (4:32 ff) gives us a hint as to what that kind of freedom would look like in action. For some reason, I think you would be among the first to complain were our government organized on that model.

June 30, 2012 at 6:29 a.m.
joneses said...

ObamaCare Will Inflict Vast Array of Tax Increases Despite the absurd ruling by the activist Supreme Court, the individual mandate is a power grab, not a tax — not that there is any shortage of taxes in ObamaCare, as Americans for Tax Reform documents:

  1. Excise tax on charitable hospitals ($50,000 per hospital hike).
  2. Codification of the “economic substance doctrine” ($4.5 billion tax hike).
  3. “Black liquor” tax hike ($23.6 billion hike).
  4. Tax on innovator drug companies ($2.3 billion).
  5. Blue Cross/Blue Shield tax hike ($400 million).
  6. Tax on indoor tanning services ($2.7 billion).
  7. Medicine cabinet tax ($5 billion).
  8. HSA withdrawal tax hike ($1.4 billion).
  9. Employer reporting of insurance on W2.
  10. Surtax on investment income ($123 billion).
  11. Hike in Medicare payroll tax ($86.8 billion).
  12. Tax on medical device manufacturers ($20 billion).
  13. Raise haircut for medical itemized deduction ($15.2 billion).
  14. Special needs kids tax ($13 billion).
  15. Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage.
  16. Annual executive compensation limit for health insurance executives ($600 million).
  17. Individual mandate excise “tax”.
  18. Employer mandate tax.
  19. Tax on health insurers ($60.1 billion).
  20. Excise tax on comprehensive health insurance plans ($32 billion).

In return for all the $billions upon $billions being looted from us, we get to watch vast armies of petty tyrant bureaucrats cut us off from our healthcare system.

Ramming ObamaCare down the country’s throat despite mass public resistance is the Manchurian Moonbat’s only achievement of any significance whatsoever. He ran on the incessantly repeated promise that he would not raise taxes “one dime” on 98% of Americans. That is, he ran on a brazen lie. Yet there are people who would vote for him again.

June 30, 2012 at 7:10 a.m.

It sure looks like the Obama adminstration is caught in a cover-up of activites, lies, and deceits surrounding Fast and Furious. If Holder had admitted his involvement early on, then Obama would not be involved in the cover-up.

Once again, the Not Ready for Prime Time Players are way in over their heads.

Hey Clay, where are you in all of this?

June 30, 2012 at 7:35 a.m.
WHS1970 said...

Nice rant jonsey, now get back on the topic of the day.

June 30, 2012 at 7:36 a.m.
GameOn said...

Anniebelle, why impose your Fairytale political ideas on us? You believe that stuff, I'm sure the followers of Hitler and Stalin believed just as ignorantly as you belive your chosen liberal ideas. So why don't you just 'quietly' shut up.

June 30, 2012 at 7:40 a.m.
tifosi said...

government + religion = taliban

Haven't we already learned about this extremism. Christians are free to congregate at the church of their choice and pray whenever they like. That freedom is protected and I will always defend it.

June 30, 2012 at 7:55 a.m.
Easy123 said...

AndrewLohr,

If atheism is a religion, then OFF is a television channel. Atheism is the default setting. We are all born atheist or at least agnostic. We have to be indoctrinated to start believing in religion.

Also, North Korea is not an atheist country. Kim il-sung is a deity there. The people believe he created the world and he is the "Grear Leader". They believe Kim il-sung is still the nation's Eternal President even after he died. Kim Jong-il is simply a physical extension of his father. The same goes for Kim Jong-un. It's considered a personality cult. It sounds a lot like The Trinity actually.

There is no such thing as an "atheist" government. In the example you gave, Communist Russia, Stalin was the figurehead. People worshiped his rule and leadership. Dictatorial leaders eliminate religion so that they become the godhead. They want all the glory and praise.

June 30, 2012 at 8:07 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Bookieturnersghost,

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Good try. But everyone, even John Boehner, knows this is a witch hunt.

June 30, 2012 at 8:11 a.m.
moon4kat said...

Kudos to Steven Disbrow for his courage in challenging the Commission's attempt to establish an official religion. What he's doing cannot be easy, but his fortitude benefits all of us who want religious freedom (including freedom from enforced religiosity).

June 30, 2012 at 8:13 a.m.
joneses said...

whs1970

This topic is not important as I will pray when and where I want and this topic only makes atheist look more foolish than they are. Like man of the fool Bennett's cartoon's they are designed to take attention away from obastard's failures which is everything he has done. I will post what I want and there is nothing you can do about it.

June 30, 2012 at 8:21 a.m.
joneses said...

http://www.imcitizen.net/chief-justice-roberts-is-a-genius/

Chief Justice Roberts Is a Genius Posted by I. M. Citizen on June 28, 2012 Healthcare.

June 28, 2012

Before you look to do harm to Chief Justice Roberts or his family, it’s important that you think carefully about the meaning – the true nature — of his ruling on Obama-care. The Left will shout that they won, that Obama-care was upheld and all the rest. Let them.

It will be a short-lived celebration.

Here’s what really occurred — payback. Yes, payback for Obama’s numerous, ill-advised and childish insults directed toward SCOTUS.

Chief Justice Roberts actually ruled the mandate, relative to the commerce clause, was unconstitutional. That’s how the Democrats got Obama-care going in the first place. This is critical. His ruling means Congress can’t compel American citizens to purchase anything. Ever. The notion is now officially and forever, unconstitutional. As it should be.

Next, he stated that, because Congress doesn’t have the ability to mandate, it must, to fund Obama-care, rely on its power to tax. Therefore, the mechanism that funds Obama-care is a tax. This is also critical. Recall back during the initial Obama-care battles, the Democrats called it a penalty, Republicans called it a tax. Democrats consistently soft sold it as a penalty. It went to vote as a penalty. Obama declared endlessly, that it was not a tax, it was a penalty. But when the Democrats argued in front of the Supreme Court, they said ‘hey, a penalty or a tax, either way’. So, Roberts gave them a tax. It is now the official law of the land — beyond word-play and silly shenanigans. Obama-care is funded by tax dollars. Democrats now must defend a tax increase to justify the Obama-care law.

June 30, 2012 at 8:23 a.m.
joneses said...

Continued

Finally, he struck down as unconstitutional, the Obama-care idea that the federal government can bully states into complying by yanking their existing medicaid funding. Liberals, through Obama-care, basically said to the states — ‘comply with Obama-care or we will stop existing funding.’ Roberts ruled that is a no-no. If a state takes the money, fine, the Feds can tell the state how to run a program, but if the state refuses money, the federal government can’t penalize the state by yanking other funding. Therefore, a state can decline to participate in Obama-care without penalty. This is obviously a serious problem. Are we going to have 10, 12, 25 states not participating in “national” health-care? Suddenly, it’s not national, is it?

Ultimately, Roberts supported states rights by limiting the federal government’s coercive abilities. He ruled that the government can not force the people to purchase products or services under the commerce clause and he forced liberals to have to come clean and admit that Obama-care is funded by tax increases.

Although he didn’t guarantee Romney a win, he certainly did more than his part and should be applauded.

And he did this without creating a civil war or having bricks thrown through his windshield. Oh, and he’ll be home in time for dinner.

Brilliant.

J

June 30, 2012 at 8:24 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

In this case, joneses, you are exactly correct. It appears to be a victory for the national health care system, but Roberts has delivered a small victory that will assure a later defeat.

June 30, 2012 at 8:28 a.m.
joneses said...

ike

It appears it will be a later defeat of obastardcare as if the states do not set up exchanges there is nothing obastard can do about it.

June 30, 2012 at 8:37 a.m.
joneses said...

I nominate clay bennett for the POS of the year award.

June 30, 2012 at 8:41 a.m.
conservative said...

"CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....." Those words of the First Amendment are obviously foreign to Liberals.

They ignorantly ( the other choice is lie ) proclaim that a prayer at a public meeting violates the First Amendment and establishes a religion.

The First Amendment clearly states that CONGRESS is prohibited from establishing a national religion. Furthermore the religion would have to be written into law.

Now to state that a spoken pray at a local government meeting establishes a national religion is obviously preposterous!

June 30, 2012 at 8:41 a.m.
delmar said...

I'm curious, what kind of prayer was it?

June 30, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.
joneses said...

conservative

These foolish liberals never acknowledge the statement "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". This statement is very inconvenient to their foolish argument. By the way this is about control and has nothing to do with religion. Do not be fooled by their lies. I saw the pathetic liberal at the court house say "we will let them pray we just forbid them to reference Jesus Christ". The key word he used was "let". This is purely about control which is the driving force of the liberal agenda. He has not the power to let anyone do anything. Someone needs to tell this fool how minuscule he actually is.

June 30, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Jahchild - I will second your nomination.

June 30, 2012 at 8:54 a.m.
MTJohn said...

joneses said..."These foolish liberals never acknowledge the statement "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". it is very inconvenient to there foolish argument."

Joneses - you contradict yourself. Public officials who exercise their religion in the conduct of their public duty are, in fact, prohibiting the free exercise of religion by those whom they have been elected/appointed to serve. Thereby, they also have violated their oath to uphold the Constitution. How very inconvenient for those who wish to ignore the Constitution, while professing to be strict constructionists.

June 30, 2012 at 8:59 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

JonRoss, that is not what we "lefties" want. We expect government officials acting in their role as government representatives adhere to the constitution. Those same government officials can do whatever they want on their own time, in public or private. How difficult is that? If you were a member of a minority religion, you would want the same. It's only because you share religious beliefs that you think it is okay.

June 30, 2012 at 9:11 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

But ikee the Obama regime wants the Catholics to kill babies in the name of the regime. Where in the constitution does it say Catholics have to kill babies ?

Please demonstrate evidence that the Obama "regime" wants to kill babies in the name of the regime.

June 30, 2012 at 9:13 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

In other words, you lied about the Obama administration wanting Catholics to kill babies in the name of the "regime"?

June 30, 2012 at 9:19 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

The cartoon is irrelevant. Just Clay123 (and the left) attempt at being devisive. That's the plan. Nothing to run on, so keep heaping on the anti-religion, all who oppose are racists, Pubs hate the poor, and the infamous war on women, etc. ...I must say it's probably a winning strategy for the party. Not so much for the country.

June 30, 2012 at 9:22 a.m.
librul said...

Now THAT is a great cartoon - Clay, your work is Pulitzer bound.

It's so hilarious the way the right wingnut trolls try to yank the reins to redirect the discussion. Do NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

This discussion is about obstinance and arrogance by Christians on the Hamilton County Commission to promote their personal beliefs as dominant in our county government. Their actions are unconstitutional and in defiance of our laws. Their continued promotion of Christianity under the aegis of their authority is repulsive. It denies the rights of those citizens with minority religious beliefs and those who reject the appeal to ethereal gods as idiocy, like myself, and shows a patently illegal preference for THEIR beliefs. If they were all Muslims, the courthouse would be in flames. It may be yet.

Chalk up another "war" over religions - it's all they are good for.

June 30, 2012 at 9:23 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

BTW, I read the text of Michele Obama's speech at the church-she does not say "vote for Obama". She says to be active, to support the causes you believe in, and to make democracy work for the people. Nice lie there too, Jon Ross.

And, yes, you did lie about the killing babies.

June 30, 2012 at 9:24 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Nothing to run on, so keep heaping on the anti-religion

Not anti-religion. Anti theocracy.

June 30, 2012 at 9:26 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

They are frightened and fearful of what the Obama regime is doing to us.

So what rights did you and they lose since 2008?

June 30, 2012 at 9:29 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

And what evidence do you have that a) the economy is about to collapse and b) Obama is personally responsible? What rights have you lost?

June 30, 2012 at 9:35 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Ikeithlu: Where's the threat of a theocracy? Where? That's delusional. I guess it plays well with the left, but I'm not seeing it. You lefties get a couple of talking points ingrained, and beat the living shiz out of 'em. Even tho they're totally irrelevant.

June 30, 2012 at 9:38 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

No, I am not concerned that we will have a theocracy, but to ask that the constitution be followed is not anti-religion. It is anti theocracy. To be anti Obama is fine (not every agrees with his policies) but to claim outrageous things like that he intends to destroy our economy is, well, stupid.

June 30, 2012 at 9:46 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn...

Regarding your comment to joneses I believe that you are the one contradicting yourself. Using your logic here's why :

First, I will provide the complete First Amendment : "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Now I will focus on the words "or abridging the freedom of speech,"

Now according to your logic ( which I strongly believe to be silly ) a prayer by a public official would somehow prohibit the free exercise of religion by another. So, according to your logic other speech spoken by that public official would abridge the free speech of another!

June 30, 2012 at 9:46 a.m.
carlB said...

JonRoss said... Hey Bennett, do one about the parents of Brian Terry.

Reply to JonRoss; So you will go along with the "witch hunt" of the "half assed" investigation of the "truth"? The Republicans are not wanting the information, they only want to complain about not getting the "right information regardless of how much information is given to them.
When the Republicans did not want to hear any information about how the Program started, what does that indicate? Sometimes a "person acting as a "Bully" never knows when to shut up. The Republicans' thinking and their judgment has to be flawed if they continue to think that using their same methods false and misinformation to get the Public Opinion for bringing down President Obama's administration because of the US Border policies before he was elected, with people getting killed everyday. It appears too easy for the anti Obama people to forget about the policies of the Cheney/Bush W. administration, lying their way into the invasion of Iraq where 4500 of our troops got killed and about 35,000 wounded with 15,000 seriously wounded.
Get real, that is what this next election will be about. The voters are wanting to hear the truth for "change" not the lying and false information from the Republicans for again destroying and taking this Republic back to the "stone age' mentality.

June 30, 2012 at 9:47 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Ikeithlu: Will concede that. It's the unintended consequences that all flawed policies bring. I think Obamatax is flawed. Do we need comprehensive healthcare overhaul? Yes.

June 30, 2012 at 9:49 a.m.
joneses said...

mt john said,

"Public officials who exercise their religion in the conduct of their public duty are, in fact, prohibiting the free exercise of religion by those whom they have been elected/appointed to serve. Thereby, they also have violated their oath to uphold the Constitution. How very inconvenient for those who wish to ignore the Constitution, while professing to be strict constructionists."

They are not prohibiting me from exercising my religion and atheist have no religion. Can you tell me the name of a Muslim, Buddhist or any other member of a religion who has been deprived by a public official from exercising their religion? Name one.

June 30, 2012 at 9:49 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - the logic that you fail to grasp is that public service is a public trust. Responsible public servants understand the distinction between their official behavior and their behavior as private citizens. They also understand the distinction between their rights, as private citizens, and their official responsibilities. The rights which our Constitution grants to all citizens do not empower public servants to exercise those rights, in their public capacity, to abridge the rights of others.

June 30, 2012 at 9:56 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joneses,

Every Muslim, Buddhist, etc. that is in Hamilton County is being deprived by the commission to express their religion. Do they get to pray at the commission meetings? Do the Christian prayers represent their beliefs? The answer is no. Government should not do anything that might be construed as an establishment of religion. It is unconstitutional.

" The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation"

James Madison, Detached Memoranda

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions64.html

June 30, 2012 at 10 a.m.
MTJohn said...

joneses said..."They are not prohibiting me from exercising my religion..."

Only because you happen to agree with them. How would you feel if the praying commissioners were Muslim or Buddhist?

June 30, 2012 at 10 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Can you tell me the name of a Muslim, Buddhist or any other member of a religion who has been deprived by a public official from exercising their religion?

Being required to listen to a Protestant Christian prayer at a government meeting is a violation of their rights. It implies that Protestant Christians have more power and first say in government actions. All this seems fine to those that are in the majority now. But should another group gain that majority, Protestant Christians will be glad that the constitution was upheld in these seemingly minor matters. People do not need to pray when acting as government officials in a official function. No Christians are losing any rights. Churches are still open for business, tax exempt, as they have for years. People are not prevented from praying, even loudly on street corners.

It's the unintended consequences that all flawed policies bring. I think Obamatax is flawed. Do we need comprehensive healthcare overhaul? Yes.

If we could all set aside the hysteria, the incorrect information, the stereotypes, the conspiracy paranoia, the exaggerations, and the insults, we could make some progress as a nation on these and other real problems.

June 30, 2012 at 10:03 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Ikeithlu: "If we could all set aside the hysteria, the incorrect information, the stereotypes, the conspiracy paranoia, the exaggerations, and the insults, we could make some progress as a nation on these and other real problems." Not likely to happen Keith. Too much rancor. And the left's attempt (partially successful) to paint all opposition as racist misogynists seems to be gaining traction. Sad indeed. And shameful. I'm sure you agree. :)

June 30, 2012 at 10:09 a.m.
joneses said...

mt john,

it would not bother me one bit.

Ike

The ones against these prayers do not have to stay and listen they have the right to leve during prayer. Part of tolerance is knowing when to leave. I find it hypocritical of you liberals to preach tolerance when you are the least tolerant of all.

June 30, 2012 at 10:12 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn...

So you double down on your silliness by constructing a strawman that public officials should not abridge the rights of others. I agree, and I think even some of your fellow Liberals would agree with that strawman.

Now defend your first comment to joneses or refute my last comment to you.

June 30, 2012 at 10:13 a.m.
joneses said...

easy,

Do these other religions want to pray at the commission meetings? have they ever asked? The answer is no to both.

June 30, 2012 at 10:13 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

The ones against these prayers do not have to stay and listen they have the right to leve during prayer. Part of tolerance is knowing when to leave. I find it hypocritical of you liberals to preach tolerance when you are the least tolerant of all.

Government must be for ALL people, not just the one's whose religious traditions are shared by those in official capacity. Sorry, you are wrong on this one, joneses.

Sad indeed. And shameful. I'm sure you agree. :)

Indeed. I hope for a time when we can discuss the actual policies, decisions, actions and their good and bad ramifications (all actions have both good and bad) without resorting to questioning the legitimacy and patriotism of both the politicians and the debate participants. I can dream, I guess.

Do these other religions want to pray at the commission meetings? have they ever asked? The answer is no to both.

Given the number of religions represented in this country, including dozens of versions of Christianity, that would be a huge distraction. It makes more sense to not do it at all, or offer (like I saw at a large state university graduation) a non-denominational prayer applicable to any faith tradition that recognizes a supreme being by any name. As an atheist, I had no problem with that. We all reach to something, within or without, for strength or guidance. As the Episcopal Church says so well: "great mystery we call God".

June 30, 2012 at 10:15 a.m.
carlB said...

joneses said "They are not prohibiting me from exercising my religion and atheist have no religion. Can you tell me the name of a Muslim, Buddhist or any other member of a religion who has been deprived by a public official from exercising their religion? Name one. said; They are not prohibiting me from exercising my religion and atheist have no religion. Can you tell me the name of a Muslim, Buddhist or any other member of a religion who has been deprived by a public official from exercising their religion? Name one."

Reply to joneses; Did you ever think of the reasons/purposes of why all the "great houses of worship" are built?
Do you have a "big government" person preventing you from entering your place of worship? It would seem to me that since Public Prayer is for a suggestive purpose, many of the people as you need to pray out loud to yourselves in private for doing what is proper?

June 30, 2012 at 10:21 a.m.
joneses said...

ike

We all know you liberals do not care whether an elected official prays before a commission meeting or not. You know as well as I this is another foolish liberal attempt to control people. You should be ashamed of yourself.

June 30, 2012 at 10:24 a.m.
LibDem said...

Notwithstanding the Court's interpretation of the protections of the 14th Amendment, government sanctioned prayer leaders seem a wise choice. Political leaders always know what is in our best interests.

June 30, 2012 at 10:24 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

We all know you liberals do not care whether an elected official prays before a commission meeting or not. You know as well as I this is another foolish liberal attempt to control people. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Hahahahaha!!! You crack me up, joneses. Like conservatives that want to legislate morality, right? I've decided you're a Poe.

June 30, 2012 at 10:29 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

So, all you non believers think god doesn't exist? Prove it!

June 30, 2012 at 10:31 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joneses,

You really need to get your noggin' checked. I've never known anyone that believed everything was a conspiracy. But you, sir, live to create conspiracy when there is none.

June 30, 2012 at 10:32 a.m.
joneses said...

ike

You do not crack me up because fools are not funny. And you foolish liberals want to legislate immorality. I have decided you are a fool and by your post it appears you agree.

June 30, 2012 at 10:39 a.m.
tderng said...

From what I have read and heard,there is no praying being done DURING commission meetings.It is done BEFORE the meeting is called to order. Therefore these people are praying on their own time,as it states in the constitution they have a right to do,and not on government time.Anyone who doesn't want to hear the prayers should not enter the chambers until the meeting is called to order.After which no prayers shall be uttered as per the constitution.

June 30, 2012 at 10:39 a.m.
MTJohn said...

joneses said..."We all know you liberals do not care whether an elected official prays before a commission meeting or not."

Actually, joneses, my preference would be that elected officials pray before doing public business. But, they ought to pray as did the publican - NOT like a pharisee!

June 30, 2012 at 10:40 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Whatever, joneses.

June 30, 2012 at 10:45 a.m.
MTJohn said...

conservative said...So you double down on your silliness by constructing a strawman that public officials should not abridge the rights of others. I agree, and I think even some of your fellow Liberals would agree with that strawman.

Who's doubling down on silliness, conservative?? You agree that public officials should not abridge the rights of others. Yet, in the matter of public prayer in the conduct of public business, you vigorously defend public officials who are abridging the rights of others.

You do not really believe in the strict construction of the Constitution. You believe in the strict construction of your warped, self-serving interpretation of the Constitution.

June 30, 2012 at 10:47 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joneses,

"And you foolish liberals want to legislate immorality."

Prove this statement.

June 30, 2012 at 10:50 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

JonRoss: Please say you're just kidding.

June 30, 2012 at 10:53 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn..

Again, according to your logic if public officials are abridging the religious rights of others when they pray then they are also abridging the free speech rights of others when they speak!

Keep it up, I'm patient, I will work with you.

June 30, 2012 at 10:54 a.m.
tderng said...

MTJohn said...You do not really believe in the strict construction of the Constitution. You believe in the strict construction of your warped, self-serving interpretation of the Constitution.

hahahahaha....now THAT is the pot calling the kettle black!!!roflmfao!!

June 30, 2012 at 10:54 a.m.
conservative said...

The internet has opened the world to information that has in the past been difficult or time consuming to obtain. Therefore I am often amazed at the ignorance of Liberals concerning the topic of prayer in various levels of government around the country.

Non Christians have often led prayers at these public meetings. The heathen Jesse Jackson on an"Earth Day" gathering in Washington once prayed to the earth and George Bush senior was in attendance. I'm sure Bush didn't approve or agree with the heathen but just remained silent just like many others in attendance. He was tolerant, unlike Liberals who often are not.

June 30, 2012 at 11:02 a.m.
limric said...

Fabulous cartoon today Clay. Top notch stuff.

To compliment this new seal, a beautiful inscription shall be chiseled in granite at the entrance to this county seat of imbecility. “God said it. I believe it. That settles it!”

“God didn’t say it. You’re complete morons. And that settles it!” : Thanks Pat

June 30, 2012 at 11:02 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

If not to incite, then what is the point of the fish cartoon?

June 30, 2012 at 11:06 a.m.
joneses said...

Ike,

WOW! What an intelligent statement "whatever". You are a dolt.

June 30, 2012 at 11:10 a.m.
joneses said...

Easy,

That is easy look at what you support. Same sex marriages, killing babies, a pathological liar of a president named obastard, a fool in the white house that will not enforce the laws of the United States. Look at what you support and the proof is right their stupid.

June 30, 2012 at 11:11 a.m.
joneses said...

I am out of here as I have better things to do than converse with a bunch of foolish liberals who worship a God named "obastard".

June 30, 2012 at 11:12 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Don't let the door hit you on the butt, joneses honey. Come back when you are ready to converse like a grown-up.

June 30, 2012 at 11:20 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joneses,

You have no clue what I support. :)

And we all know you have nothing better to do. Intercourse with your goat doesn't count.

OBAMA 2012!

June 30, 2012 at 11:21 a.m.
jdavid said...

I've met and had intelligent discussions with lots of folks that were more Liberal or Conservative than I am. I wish some of them would move to Chattanooga.

June 30, 2012 at 11:26 a.m.
jdavid said...

To Jack_Dennis, If Clay had wanted to incite, the fish would have feet.

June 30, 2012 at 11:30 a.m.
potcat said...

I am going to post this every time i am on this thread.

Easy posted this week... Everyone deserves to live in whichever country, state, etc. they choose... I guess al has'nt turned over yet, so we just have the one Know it all right now.

Everyone deserves to live in whichever country, state, etc. they choose, Easy123.

The Link masters think it proves every thing they assert as proof of their opinions.

I talked to a Gov. guy and told him about what al and easy were saying about the Indian's and other foreigners "except Mexicans" getting gov. loans, they say it just does'nt happen. He told me not to call it a loan, call it a Grant. The Gov. thinks this sounds better and its kept undercover as much as it can be. They also get special tax breaks for five years.

Everyone deserves to live in whichever country,state,etc.they choose, Easy123.

How about what the state of TN. and Federal Gov. gave the German car makers, $300,000 for a fricking sign.

Everyone deserves to live in whichever country, state, etc. they choose, Easy123.

June 30, 2012 at 11:31 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

so Jdavid: If not to incite, why the fish?

June 30, 2012 at 11:51 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Potcat,

Thank you for repeating my post. You haven't stated anything that would lead me to believe otherwise. You haven't even made a claim. Thanks for spreading the message though. I hope it sinks in.

June 30, 2012 at 11:51 a.m.
alprova said...

Conservative wrote: "Again, according to your logic if public officials are abridging the religious rights of others when they pray then they are also abridging the free speech rights of others when they speak!"

That assertion is one of your silliest to date.

You're one of those people who believes that the Bible reflects the word of God, right?

Why is it that you completely ignore two simple verses contained in the New Testament, which are to the point, and more than addresses this issue?

Matthew 6:5,6 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

June 30, 2012 at 11:53 a.m.
conservative said...

It was his logic not mine. Therefore your comment is silly.

Now read ( instead of react ) his comments and mine again and then either refute or continue to be silly.

You are an atheist so I can understand why you can not understand Scripture. I will explain your error to you later. So stew and learn to be patient instead of react.

June 30, 2012 at 12:04 p.m.
potcat said...

Easy123.....Everyone deserves to live in whichever country, state, etc. they choose.

The most stupid thing i have ever read. Sink in, not likely. I don't care to state anything to convince you. I have stated and claimed plenty, but you write as if i have'nt. Liar liar pants on fire!!

Everyone deserves to live in whichever coutry, state, etc. they choose, Easy123

June 30, 2012 at 12:21 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Conservative,

"You are an atheist so I can understand why you can not understand Scripture."

This is your main problem. You act as if all atheists don't understand the Bible of haven't read it. This is false. Most atheist are well-read in holy books. There have been many studies done that show atheists know more about Christianity than actual Christians.

I was a Christian (baptist) for 15 years before I gave it up. I know the Bible. I bet I know it better than you. I've read it cover-to-cover 3 times. I went to a Christian elementary, middle and high school. I attended a Christian college. I know Scripture and I reject it. I would bet that many atheists have a similar story. Reading the Bible is the best way to get someone to become atheist. It is full of immoral and evil teachings and stories. It is also full of historical innacuracies and blatant contradictions.

I say all that to say this, if you are a Christian, GREAT! Be the best one you can be. But leave me and my children out of it. Keep your religion to yourself. Keep your arrogance to yourself. Stop trying to put your religion on every crack and crevasse of our society. I don't believe what you believe. I never will. And I'll be damned if I'm going to let people like you teach my children "creationism" or " Jesus" in a public school. Keep your religion. I'll take science, logic and reason. Your rights end where mine begin. Don't act superior. Don't tell me or my family I'm going to hell or that I don't know the Truth. Because, I assure you, there will be a misunderstanding and things will not go well for you.

June 30, 2012 at 12:27 p.m.
TommyColeman said...

Clay Bennett is a true genius! -Tommy Coleman plaintiff suing Hamilton County for its blatant Violation of constitutional law

June 30, 2012 at 12:28 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Pot,

You haven't. You have presented nothing that would lead me to believe otherwise. If you wanted to live in (insert country here), could you? Do you have the right to move about as you please? Answer that. Then ask yourself why you believe that others don't have those same rights.

June 30, 2012 at 12:30 p.m.
alprova said...

JonRoss wrote: "Biden will be POTUS before Romney is sworn in. Obama will not pardon himself because it would be unseemly, which is a total fricking joke since Obama is unseemly, so he will resign in January and for cash Biden will pardon both Obama and Holder."

You are going off the deep end.

June 30, 2012 at 12:42 p.m.
potcat said...

No i could not move to another country and live and become a citizen,are you out of your mind??

Like i have already stated, i do not care one bit to convince you of anything,you think you alredy know it all.

No i do not have the right to move about as i please in this country, when was the last time you have been outside your bubble???

Everyone deserves to live in whichever country, state, etc. they choose, Easy123.

June 30, 2012 at 12:47 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Potcat,

Lol!

Please explain how you can't move around as you please or become a citizen of another country? People move everyday between states, countries, continents. Did you truly not know that you could do that? When was the last time you removed your head from your rectum?

June 30, 2012 at 12:54 p.m.
MTJohn said...

tderng said..."

MTJohn said...You do not really believe in the strict construction of the Constitution. You believe in the strict construction of your warped, self-serving interpretation of the Constitution.

hahahahaha....now THAT is the pot calling the kettle black!!!roflmfao!!"

tderng - I expect the Constitution to work for all citizens, not just those who share my point of view.

June 30, 2012 at 1:13 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Thanks Easy. For proving on a daily basis that you're dumb as a sled-load of sludge.

June 30, 2012 at 1:17 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

Opening with a prayer asking for guidance in decisions is much different than establishing a religion. It's amazing how so many can't get that.

June 30, 2012 at 1:19 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Laughingboy,

You're wrong. It is exactly the type of action that the Constitution forbids. Anything like an establishment of religion.

June 30, 2012 at 1:24 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Repeat question. If not to incite, why the fish?

June 30, 2012 at 1:28 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

Easy, you're wrong. Intent should be considered in a ruling on the issue.

June 30, 2012 at 1:33 p.m.

Politically speaking, I find it interesting that County Attorney Rheubin Taylor and the commissioners leading the charge to preserve constitutional prayers at commission meetings are Democrats.

June 30, 2012 at 1:37 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

LaughingBoy: Easy has applied to the YMCA (nite) Law School. Now he's a constitutional scholar.

June 30, 2012 at 1:37 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Laughingboy,

The intent is to single out one religion and hold it up as "truth". They don't have a prayer to Allah, Zeus, Wotan, Satan, etc. That is the intent and you are fully aware of that. That is what Christianity teaches. All religions are not equal at the commission and that can absolutely be construed as an establishment of religion.

June 30, 2012 at 1:39 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

They're not demanding or even asking for their religious principles to be set in place all over the country. Now that would be an attempt to establish a religion.

June 30, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

Easy, one more time. Even if they did pray to Zeus that wouldn't be an attempt to establish the old Greek mythology was an official religion for the nation. That would be them asking Zeus for guidance in their decisions. This is not very difficult to understand.

June 30, 2012 at 1:44 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Laughingboy,

Yes, they are. They aren't bringing any other religious groups in to pray. They aren't demanding or asking, they have already done it. Their Christian prayer is the only one allowed.

June 30, 2012 at 1:46 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Laughingboy,

It has nothing to do with the "entire nation". The 1st amendment applies to state and local government as well. If the county commission chooses to only include Christian prayers at their meetings, that is an establishment of one religion. No other religions are considered at the commission.

June 30, 2012 at 1:50 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

It's the commission making the decisions, thus they're the ones seeking guidance from a higher power. If there was another religion on the commission they'd probably allow him or her a prayer. It's not audience members who seem to have little interest in what happens in local government until they can put on a show like this has become. If you want actual attempt to establish a religion whether it's locally or nationally take a look at Sharia law.

June 30, 2012 at 1:55 p.m.
Easy123 said...

The commission can not make that decision. It is unconstitutional.

June 30, 2012 at 2:01 p.m.

Easy123 said... “In the example you gave, Communist Russia, Stalin was the figurehead. People worshiped his rule and leadership.”

You might want to take a second look at what “figurehead” means.

June 30, 2012 at 2:04 p.m.
shen said...

Doesn't prayer vary among fellow Christians? Some pray to the Trinity while others pray go God, and others pray to Jesus Christ and others pray the the virgin Mary?

Why not form a group. Attend the next county commission meeting, and as the comssion break into prayer stand up and each start to recite prayer from various religions around the world? Even throw in some atheist form of prayer for good measure.

Jainism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Judaism,Druids, Wicca to name a few. That would be an interesting sight I'd pay to watch.

___ Volaire (1694-1778)- I have never made but one prayer, a very short one: "Make my enemies ridiculous." And it was granted.

June 30, 2012 at 2:05 p.m.

Are there any examples of commissioners denying a request from practitioners of non-Christian religions to offer a prayer before a commission meeting? Or denying a request from atheists to lead in a moment of silence? If not, then no one's rights have been violated. No one has a right NOT to hear public expressions of religious belief, including invocations or benedictions at official government events, e.g. the presidential inauguration.

June 30, 2012 at 2:10 p.m.

Invocation at President Obama’s inauguration:

Let us pray. Almighty God, our Father, everything we see and everything we can't see exists because of you alone. It all comes from you. It all belongs to you. It all exists for your glory.

History is your story. The Scripture tells us, "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God. The Lord is One." And you are the compassionate and merciful one. And you are loving to everyone you have made.

Now, today, we rejoice not only in America's peaceful transfer of power for the 44th time. We celebrate a hingepoint of history with the inauguration of our first African American president of the United States. We are so grateful to live in this land, a land of unequaled possibility, where the son of an African immigrant can rise to the highest level of our leadership. And we know today that Dr. King and a great cloud of witnesses are shouting in heaven.

Give to our new President, Barack Obama, the wisdom to lead us with humility, the courage to lead us with integrity, the compassion to lead us with generosity. Bless and protect him, his family, Vice President Biden, the cabinet, and every one of our freely elected leaders.

Help us, O God, to remember that we are Americans, united not by race, or religion, or blood, but to our commitment to freedom and justice for all. When we focus on ourselves, when we fight each other, when we forget you, forgive us. When we presume that our greatness and our prosperity is ours alone, forgive us. When we fail to treat our fellow human beings and all the earth with the respect that they deserve, forgive us. And as we face these difficult days ahead, may we have a new birth of clarity in our aims, responsibility in our actions, humility in our approaches, and civility in our attitudes, even when we differ.

Help us to share, to serve and to seek the common good of all. May all people of goodwill today join together to work for a more just, a more healthy and a more prosperous nation and a peaceful planet. And may we never forget that one day all nations and all people will stand accountable before you. We now commit our new president and his wife, Michelle and his daughters, Malia and Sasha, into your loving care.

I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus [Spanish pronunciation], Jesus, who taught us to pray:

"Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

June 30, 2012 at 2:12 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Whats_wrong,

I noticed that. I was try to refer to "godhead". But you are correct. I used the wrong word there. My apologies.

June 30, 2012 at 2:25 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

http://voicesofamericanlaw.org/media/documents/MarshvChambers.pdf

SYLLABUS: The Nebraska Legislature begins...its sessions with a prayer by a chaplain paid by the State with the legislature's approval. Member of the Nebraska Legislature brought action in Federal District Court, claiming the...practice violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and seeking injunctive relief. The District Court held that the Establishment Clause was not breached by the prayer but was violated by paying the chaplain from public funds, and accordingly enjoined the use of such funds to pay the chaplain. The Court of Appeals held that the whole chaplaincy practice violated the Establishment Clause, and accordingly prohibited the State from engaging in any aspect of the practice.

Held: The Nebraska Legislature's chaplaincy practice does not violate the Establishment Clause. Pp. 786-795.

The practice of opening sessions of Congress with prayer has continued for almost 200 years ever since the First Congress drafted the First Amendment, and a similar practice has been followed for more than a century in Nebraska and many other states. While historical patterns, standing alone, cannot justify contemporary violations of constitutional guarantees, historical evidence in the context of this case sheds light not only on what the drafters of the First Amendment intended the Establishment Clause to mean but also on how they thought that Clause applied to the chaplaincy practice authorized by the First Congress.

In applying the First Amendment to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, it would be incongruous to interpret the Clause as imposing more stringent First Amendment limits on the states than the draftsmen imposed on the Federal Government. In light of the history, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, a violation of the Establishment Clause; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country. Pp. 786-792.

June 30, 2012 at 2:35 p.m.

No problem.

June 30, 2012 at 2:35 p.m.

James Madison’s objection to congressional and military chaplains did not prevail and the offices were approved and continue to operate. This wouldn’t apply to the case of the county commission anyway, since it is not a federal body, and it doesn’t “fund” a chaplain. Madison later reversed course and approved military chaplains during the War of 1812.

To Christians, I would echo James Madison’s warning that getting caught up in advocacy for official public expressions of religion leads to overly externalizing biblical principles and thus undermining the “inside-out” manner that Jesus taught in promoting the good news. Madison did not favor the radical privatization of religion advocated by litigants in the current case. He did, however, correctly alert his fellow Christian citizens to the danger of nominalism when the focus is on public and official expressions of religion.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights were compromise documents that left a lot of things unaddressed. I look forward to the resolution of this dispute / shouting match, which will almost certainly include a reasonable compromise policy. That’s the American way.

June 30, 2012 at 2:38 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

In the case mentioned, the Court of Appeals ruled against the entire practice, not just paying the chaplain. The Supreme Court overturned that.

June 30, 2012 at 2:46 p.m.
rick1 said...

Easy said "But leave me and my children out of it. Keep your religion to yourself."

Do you feel this way about Islama well, since it is being taught in public schools.

June 30, 2012 at 2:56 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

More from the PDF:

The unbroken practice for two centuries in the National Congress and for more than a century in Nebraska and in many other states gives abundant assurance that there is no real threat (to establishment clause) "while this Court sits," Panhandle Oil Co. v. Mississippi ex rel. Knox, 277 U.S. 218, 223 (1928) (Holmes, J., dissenting

June 30, 2012 at 3:05 p.m.
alprova said...

JahChild wrote: "He said to enter into a secret place and pray, if You are going to pray 'like the hypocrites'. The point is to not pray like a hypocrite. Even Jesus' original Apostles prayed often in public places."

You are deliberately twisting scripture.

And "when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others."

The verse not only suggests, but states clearly, that hypocrites are those who love to pray in public.

Then we are commanded to; "But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

June 30, 2012 at 3:56 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Ah, to be enlightened like you lefties. Must feel swell.

June 30, 2012 at 5:36 p.m.
Lr103 said...

rick1 said... Do you feel this way about Islama well, since it is being taught in public schools

Islam is not being taught in public schools. At least not from a religious standpoint, but more as teaching about another culture and history. It's no different than other countries being taught about American history and his primary religion, or Americans being taught Chinese and their primary religion, British or Spanish history. You righties sure do like to lie. Where does all that lying come from? Especially since y'all claim to be such good Christians. Aren't you afraid that God treat like a cheap date when you need Him, then toss Him aside might just send a big charged electrical bolt down to strike you right in the crack of your &^%!?

June 30, 2012 at 6:13 p.m.
potcat said...

Easy wants me to explain how you can't move around as you please or become a citizen of another country.

I suggest you go to China or Japan or any middle eastern country and try to become a citizen. Go to Europe and see if you can become a citizen or Africa and move around all you want, or how about Iraq and Iran ETC. and become a citizen and go any where you want. Your ass for a head will be arrested and if we're lucky they will keep you in prison, go ahead and try it.

As for the US, you can't go anywhere you want, ever hear of gated communities, Trayvon Martin ring a bell.I live near a Dam and have waked across it for 30 yrs. Not any more, its shut to the public. Have you ever been to Palm Beach? They have a small beach area for public use, but pass that area onto the gated part and you will be arrested so fast yo bubble might burst.

Easy said, Everyone deserves to live in whichever country, state,etc.they choose. I say you are one delusional individual and people like you will destroy America, it already has other countries and we are headed straight ahead toward it.

All of Europe has been ruined by immigration and they are trying to get a grip on it, a little to late, for once these immigrants get a foothold its hard to do anything with them.

June 30, 2012 at 6:26 p.m.
rick1 said...

Lr103, why don't you read the below listed link and try to educate yoiurself before you accuse someone of lying.

http://www.quranidowa.com/muslim-world/how-is-islam-being-taught-in-your-local-public-schools/

June 30, 2012 at 7:34 p.m.
Yano said...

Legal government prayer:

Dear God, or Jesus, or Vishnu, or Allah, or Nature, or Great Spirit, or Bowl of Spaghetti, please bless us and guide us, unless You don't exist, in which case never mind. Amen.

June 30, 2012 at 7:41 p.m.
conservative said...

Regarding the misuse and twisting of Mathew 6: 5&6 by those who will try anything to stop prayer in public meetings : Jesus did not condemn prayer to God in public but prayer performed by those in public who wanted to put on a false show of piety, prayer to be seen by men so they might be admired for their piety. Hypocritical prayer is the prayer condemned by Jesus in this passage, the prayer not to God but the prayer to receive the admiration of men.

JAHCHILD is correct, Jesus and his disciples often prayed in public but it was true prayer from the heart to God and not to put on a false show of love, and devotion to God.

Furthermore Scripture commands the Christian to "pray without ceasing" in 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Prayer is communion with God so a simple "praise God" from the lips would be prayer. When the Supreme Court is in session the prayer "God save this honorable court" is invoked!

Also, did you ever notice that TV prayer and "worship and healing services" conducted by hypocritical false teachers are never cited as establishing a religion by Liberals? These false prophets have a much larger audience than a local commission meeting.

June 30, 2012 at 7:59 p.m.
alprova said...

Conservative wrote: "It was his logic not mine. Therefore your comment is silly."

You interpret logic about as accurate as you do scripture.

"Now read ( instead of react ) his comments and mine again and then either refute or continue to be silly."

Ditto.

"You are an atheist so I can understand why you can not understand Scripture."

You're certainly entitled to consider me whatever you wish, but your charge that I am an atheist is as solid as a bowl full of Jello.

"I will explain your error to you later. So stew and learn to be patient instead of react."

I need no interpretation from you of a doggone thing, you self-appointed Christian hatemonger. You go stuff your brand of Christianity where the sun doesn't ever shine.

June 30, 2012 at 8:06 p.m.
Yano said...

conservative said: "prayer performed by those in public who wanted to put on a false show of piety, prayer to be seen by men so they might be admired for their piety"

I cannot think of any more accurate description of our bunch of blathering local politicians!

June 30, 2012 at 8:36 p.m.
alprova said...

potcat wandered in with: "I talked to a Gov. guy and told him about what al and easy were saying about the Indian's and other foreigners "except Mexicans" getting gov. loans, they say it just does'nt happen. He told me not to call it a loan, call it a Grant. The Gov. thinks this sounds better and its kept undercover as much as it can be. They also get special tax breaks for five years."

You're still hanging on to this?

potcat, if there is so much as a shred of truth to it, then you should have no trouble looking up the link to the Gov't program that gives "grants" to Indian immigrants, or any other nationality of immigrant, that provides funds to them that are used to purchase businesses.

Then you should post a link to the applicable IRS form, line on Form 1040 or the proper schedule, or the IRS publication that outlines, describes, and proves that any immigrants, of any nationality, receive business, personal, or any other tax breaks for five years.

Your silly imaginary conversation with "a government guy" is not going to cut it as proof that what you state is true. You're full of the worst kind of crap ever expressed in this forum.

Now get busy proving your claim or admit that you have not the first clue what you are typing about.

I repeat...there are no Gov't loans or grants available to Immigrants, of any nationality, being offered strictly on the basis of where they come here from, for the purpose of putting them in business. Further, no one in this nation, again of any nationality, is extended so much as one penny in tax breaks by the IRS, for so much as one day.

I refrained from calling you a liar in the past, because you were guilty of spreading ignorant, mythical charges that have been repeated many times by people as equally ignorant as yourself in this issue.

To add today that you have entered into a conversation with a "government guy," who allegedly told you that it was true, is nothing short of a laughable and silly lie. It never happened.

You're an embarrassment to yourself and all the other liars who frequent this forum, many of whom at least try to come up with a believable lie when they offer it.

Your lie is totally unbelievable.

Now...please get busy backing it up with something substantial, or you might consider keeping it to yourself, because you're not going to get away with typing that particular lie in here...ever.

June 30, 2012 at 8:37 p.m.
conservative said...

Yano that could be true of some but you don't really know that or do you? Want to name names and show us how astute you are?

June 30, 2012 at 8:54 p.m.
Yano said...

conservative,

How about the ones who wanted to end funding for birth control at the County Health Department, calling it "abortion," when stopping funding would have increased the number of abortions in the end? That was some posturing for local religious extremists, wasn't it?

How about Fred Skillern, who claims he "can't cook barbecue like them N****?"

How about the ones who ran the Hamilton County School superintendent out of town, expensively buying out his contract early, so they could install a local good-ol' boy?

How about the ones who use tax money to subsidize ugly suburban expansion (strip malls) developed by their friends and contributors, rather than encourage re-development of empty lots in town already serviced by roads and utilities? And they call it progress?

I don't know exactly what they think they're praying for, but it ain't working as far as I can see.

June 30, 2012 at 9:10 p.m.
conservative said...

So a group of politicians with the common name "ones" are hypocritically leading prayers?

June 30, 2012 at 9:24 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "Jesus did not condemn prayer to God in public but prayer performed by those in public who wanted to put on a false show of piety, prayer to be seen by men so they might be admired for their piety. Hypocritical prayer is the prayer condemned by Jesus in this passage, the prayer not to God but the prayer to receive the admiration of men."

Jesus states clearly that hypocrites love to pray standing "to be seen by men." Such public displays of prayer are nothing less than a display put on to win the admiration of others in the room. They are using God to promote themselves, in a public display of an offering of "proof" that they are good Christians. And Jesus says that such displays win nothing from God.

Jesus goes on to say that we are to pray sincerely - privately if you will, and to pray in secret. That kind of sincerity in seeking to council with him alone, is welcomed as he listens to private, to the point, prayers. Nothing is gained in seeking the applause, admiration, or appreciation of another soul, during displays of public prayer.

Jesus may not be not specifically condemning public prayer, but his condemning prayer in public for the purpose of putting on a show in an attempt to win the respect, approval, or appreciation of others, is clear. We must pray sincerely to God if we desire his ear and his response.

God knows what every person needs before it is asked for.

Every one of those Councilmen can conduct a very private, secret, individual prayer, seeking God's assistance and guidance, before the commencement of each session. And according to what Jesus relates in Matthew 6, verses 5 and 6, that is exactly how they should be doing it.

"Also, did you ever notice that TV prayer and "worship and healing services" conducted by hypocritical false teachers are never cited as establishing a religion by Liberals?"

You're comparing apples to bananas. You and I can make a conscience decision to never watch those people. We can turn the channel if we run across them on a television.

If a person has business before or interest in any of the issues being presented at a Council meeting, and they have any objection to displays of public prayer, it's not as simple as selecting another channel or refusing to tune into a program.

No one is forced to watch any displays of religion over the television airwaves, for so much as one second. When one arrives to attend a Council meeting and a public prayer is performed, that is a display of religious dogma being forced upon all people in the room. All are asked to participate in this public display by bowing their heads.

"These false prophets have a much larger audience than a local commission meeting."

Be that as it may, every person who may be watching, is tuned in of their own free will that is unless the battery goes dead in their remote control at the time that the channel is selected, preventing them from changing the channel.

June 30, 2012 at 9:27 p.m.
Yano said...

Prayer is sincere.

Voluntary group prayer is sincere.

Prayer before a general audience of strangers is ostentation, proselytization, and/or hypocrisy. And when the government does it, it's establishmentarian and unconstitutional.

June 30, 2012 at 9:32 p.m.
conservative said...

You don't know their intentions. Your opinion on prayer is foreign to the words of the First Amendment.

June 30, 2012 at 9:39 p.m.
Yano said...

TOES02800 said...

http://www.womensbusinessgrants.com/illegalimmigrants.shtml

http://freefederalgovernmentgrants.blogspot.com/2011/03/grants-for-immigrants.html

Alpo: Here's two with minimal effort.

Toes,

One of those links says "We currently have no grant listings with current deadlines."

The other one is a blog that says "If you are an illegal immigrant, you may not be able to receive a grant." and links to various government grants, none of which are for illegal immigrants as far as I can see.

June 30, 2012 at 9:44 p.m.
Oz said...

Chattanooga has a church on every street corner and not one pastor or congregation member has shown up to defend prayer. It's pretty sad. The atheist are more committed than the Christians. They don't call us the Frozen Chosen for nothing. Thousands of Christians in Chattanooga should show up at the Courthouse.

June 30, 2012 at 9:47 p.m.
Yano said...

conservative,

It is the effect of their actions that counts.

Also, their actions speak to their intentions pretty clearly. It's an in-your-face "we (may or may not really) love Jesus and you can listen to us brag about it or you can buzz off cause we outnumber you here" message, a message that is foreign to the words of the First Amendment.

June 30, 2012 at 9:48 p.m.
conservative said...

Now you have gone gibberish on me.

June 30, 2012 at 9:52 p.m.
mv said...

Oz-preachers are not the only individuals who want prayer in this county. Several individuals, not sure if they are preachers, have spoken in favor. As a matter of fact, there has already been a major petition drive to continue prayer. Shows that those in the pews are active.

June 30, 2012 at 10 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "You don't know their intentions."

For that matter, neither do you.

"Your opinion on prayer is foreign to the words of the First Amendment."

On January 17, 2012, The Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal from a North Carolina county commission over the "Christian prayers" offered when opening public meetings.

The justices left in place, by failing to allow a hearing on the matter, a federal appeals court ruling that held that the Christian prayers at the start of Forsyth County commission meetings violated the First Amendment’s prohibition on government endorsement of a particular religion.

The commission argued that its doors have "long been open" to religious leaders of many "faiths," but the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Va., found that more than 3/4 of the 33 public prayers offered before council meetings between May 2007 and December 2008 referred to "Jesus," "Jesus Christ," "Christ" or "Savior."

Your theory is not supported by the Supreme Court. You simply disagree with them that such displays of public prayer are not protected as exercises of free speech, which is fine.

Disagree all you wish. No one is attempting in the least sense of the word from demanding that you not practice your religious freedoms.

You are free to be as religious as you choose, and are allowed to bow your head and pray until your heart's content, for as long as you personally deem necessary, but you are to do so quietly and without disrupting others in your immediate proximity.

What in the world is so objectionable about a requirement that you interact with God privately and silently?

I would respectfully like to read a serious response to that question, if you can muster up one that makes sense.

June 30, 2012 at 10:09 p.m.

This one will get a lot of letters into the paper. I suggest they all be saved as evidence for the court to review. It will give a sense of the community.

Especially the ones who endorse the idea of such a theocracy.

June 30, 2012 at 10:26 p.m.
Oz said...

mv... I support prayer and I am not casting stones. I'm as guilty as the next person.

June 30, 2012 at 10:29 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Bulbs: Who's endorsing a theocracy?

June 30, 2012 at 10:31 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES02800 decided to weigh in on with:

http://www.womensbusinessgrants.com/illegalimmigrants.shtml

Are you serious? Did you even look at the information contained in that website?

Not one clickable link leads to so much as one Gov't website offering "business grants" to a soul. It's a solicitation site, seeking donations to the "Womens Financial Fund," whatever that is.

http://freefederalgovernmentgrants.blogspot.com/2011/03/grants-for-immigrants.html

That best information found on that site is a link directing one to visit "grants.gov" By all means, visit that site. Type in "business grants for immigrants" and see what pops up. You'll find page after page of nothing at all to suggest that the Gov't awards grants to immigrants of any description. But knock yourself out perusing those pages.

"Alpo: Here's two with minimal effort."

Minimal effort is right. Clearly, you didn't read a word below the heading on those two pages.

It's like watching a vintage Wendy's commercial.

"Where's the beef?"

June 30, 2012 at 10:40 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "Now you have gone gibberish on me."

That's it? Have you ran out of words? Wow!! I expected a much better defense attempt for the indefensible.

June 30, 2012 at 10:46 p.m.
alprova said...

mv wrote: "Oz-preachers are not the only individuals who want prayer in this county. Several individuals, not sure if they are preachers, have spoken in favor."

In the end, no matter how far this all goes, all these people in favor of public prayer at County Council meetings, will lose. Federal Court after court has ruled against public prayer before, during, and after meetings attended by members of the general public.

The Supreme Court has refused to hear any cases requesting that lower court rulings be overturned on the matter. Every angle has been argued, re-argued, and argued again.

When will people ever learn that the rule of law dictates what is and is not allowed in this country? People will try every way under heaven to exact a different result, using the same old arguments.

"As a matter of fact, there has already been a major petition drive to continue prayer. Shows that those in the pews are active."

Public prayer belongs under the roofs of buildings containing those pews. Even then, someone leading a congregation in a group demonstration of prayer inside of a church isn't public prayer. It is quite private and contained to those in voluntary attendance inside that building, located on private property.

June 30, 2012 at 11:01 p.m.

Jack_Dennis, wait for the letters. Maybe even ask for the ones that don't get printed.

June 30, 2012 at 11:09 p.m.
mv said...

alprova-let's wait and see. You might be surprised. It is about time that the constitution is allowed to stand on it's own merits and not the opinion of others. When will we get back to strict interpretation rather than case law?

June 30, 2012 at 11:31 p.m.

Good idea, overthrow the entirety of American Jurisprudence, with the possible exception of Louisiana, in order to go back to your imagined notion which you believe is the true way.

I'm sure that'll fly.

July 1, 2012 at 12:05 a.m.
alprova said...

mv wrote: "alprova-let's wait and see. You might be surprised."

I'm sorry, but nothing gives me any reason whatsoever to believe that this case will result in a pass being given to the Hamilton County, Tennessee Commissioners, in that they will be allowed to conduct public religious demonstrations of prayer, when every gov't institution across this entire nation, whenever challenged in a court of law, has been found to be in violation of the U.S. Constitution for doing the same thing.

"It is about time that the constitution is allowed to stand on it's own merits and not the opinion of others."

Interpretation of the U.S. Constitution is always a matter of opinion, and the Supreme Court is the end of the line when it comes to matters of opinion that carry the full weight of the rule of law.

The very fact that the Supreme Court has refused to accept any challenges to lower court rulings, indicates that they agree with the rulings of those lower courts. Case closed.

"When will we get back to strict interpretation rather than case law?"

Case law involves application of strict interpretation standards, which are almost always cited in such rulings.

July 1, 2012 at 12:05 a.m.
potcat said...

al, you are the silly stupid liar and so is Easy. I don't make things up and if you knew the people who have told me these truths and their actual business dealings with these people, i don't think you would would be as confident in the name calling.

Have you ever considered that you are the one believing such a lie? The people that i have talked with on this subject are not just pulling crap out of their ass. I have at least tried to find out the truth by talking to people who would know such things and have sold and had business dealings with them. Who do you think i am going to believe, you or them.

If you think for one second that i'm going to be afraid of your threats of being called a liar and ignorant, and the people who know "are idiots" is not likely.

July 1, 2012 at 6:22 a.m.
alprova said...

potcat, there is a simple solution to this dispute between you and I and the more you type, the more convinced that you just don't have the capability to even try to back up your claim.

I asked you to provide links to two pieces of proof that would show that the Gov't "grants" or "loans" money to people of any nationality to allow them to buy businesses. Then I asked you prove that there is a specific form, line on the 1040, or a publication from the IRS, that allows anyone of another nationality to claim five years worth of tax breaks, for so much as a penny.

If either one of these claims were true, the evidence would exist that they are true. The IRS has a form for every known tax break allowed a living soul in this country, and every last one of them are online. Grants and loans of any description sponsored by the Gov't are all online as well.

If either claim you have offered were remotely true and correct, you would be able to dig the proof in minutes to those two claims.

Your claim to have "talked" to others is a common tactic used by people who are either unwilling or incapable of using any cognitive skills on a computer keyboard to back up assertions they make, whenever challenged.

It's bad enough that you are a xenophobe of the worst order. You are now guilty of the attempt, repeatedly, in spreading two horrible lies that you refuse to back up with credible evidence. Further, you do not have the decency to retract those lies.

By all means, feel free to stick to your little story. It's all you apparently have to offer, and as evidence, it's worthless.

Just keep it in the back of your mind that if you ever type these or any other lies again, you can expect to be taken to task for doing so.

July 1, 2012 at 10:40 a.m.
Easy123 said...

CrackPotcat,

You can become a naturalized citizen almost anywhere in the world. China, Japan, Africa, Europe, and even the Middle East. You can buy a house in one of those gated communities. Your Trayvon Martin example is one of the stupidest statements I've read here. If you truly believe what you say, then you are the most ignorant poster on here. Right up there with Joneses. People like you are ruining this country and the world. And by "people like you" I mean ignorant liars that have no clue what they are talking about. Read a book. Surf the web. Get your head out of your anus and open your eyes to reality. You blatant disregard for facts and the truth is almost pitiful.

July 1, 2012 at 11:11 a.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

Jesus had to deal with crackpots like the good folk in Hamilton County.

If Jesus can deal with this kinda crack pot, I guess I can.

July 1, 2012 at 12:45 p.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

Egypt has to deal with the Muslim Brotherhood.

America has to deal with the Christian Brotherhood.

Half dozen of 1 and 6 of another. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

July 1, 2012 at 12:48 p.m.
potcat said...

Both of you are CrackPots and have called me a liar etc. Its simply not true and i am in good company with the majority that not only have done business and know the facts of what and how its done. Its funny that niether of you have mention my in/law that teaches Turks in Nashville and got her Federal and state school loans wiped clear if she would stay at that school for 5 yrs. and teach in little turksville and deal with the gang, "TurkPride" I guess thats a lie also! They are having a little problem keeping teachers, wonder why?

Who do you think you are al, the Master of this thread, screw you!! easy you are so stupid and anti American that you actually think you can go and become a citizen of any country you want and anyone in the world can, if they want, become a citizen of this this contry, its simply insane and not true and you are one loony bird!!!

I don't need a link, its kept secret, i do believe the people who has done business with them.

July 1, 2012 at 1:24 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Potty kitten,

Seriously, you're an idiot. You can become a naturalized citizen in basically any country in the world. I've said that several times now and showed you the proof. And anyone can become a citizen in the US.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextchannel=86bd6811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

You are a fool. A complete moron. Seriously, it is almost unbelievable that you could think the way you do and then try to argue about it. You're anti-intelligent, anti-common sense, anti-brain function. Unbelievable. Get your head out of your ass and accept reality.

July 1, 2012 at 3:13 p.m.
potcat said...

No you cannot, try it and see for yourself. I am not going to get down to your level of denigrating you, i think your post says it all. I have obviously hit a nerve and you can't take it. I suggest we drop this and move on. Nothing you or al can say that will make me or a billion other fool's and moron's who believe otherwise. Potty kitten, sooo mature!!!

July 1, 2012 at 5:24 p.m.
alprova said...

potcat wrote: "Both of you are CrackPots and have called me a liar etc. Its simply not true and i am in good company with the majority that not only have done business and know the facts of what and how its done."

Majority, huh? Did you notice that not one person in this forum came up with a credible attempt to support you, just because they could? Half the people in here hate my guts. They would just love to prove me incorrect on this one.

"Its funny that niether of you have mention my in/law that teaches Turks in Nashville and got her Federal and state school loans wiped clear if she would stay at that school for 5 yrs. and teach in little turksville and deal with the gang, "TurkPride" I guess thats a lie also! They are having a little problem keeping teachers, wonder why?"

Oops, you changed your story. The other day, your sister-in-law taught Kurds, and you used the phrase, "Kurd Pride" to describe "gangs" at the school. You used the word "Kurdistan" too.

Assuming that something slipped your mind, your sister-in-law most likely is affiliated with the Salahadeen Center of Nashville, a private Muslim oriented institution, specializing in the education of Kurdish students.

It's rather noteworthy that your sis-in-law teaches at a Muslim institution, don't you think? Why did you leave that piece of information out of your testimonial?

I have no problem with any assertion that she may well have been offered an arrangement for her student loans to be paid if she stays in her position for five years. However, it's not the U.S. Gov't paying off anything, that's for sure, nor are her loans simply "wiped out or wiped clear." Student loans originate from private lending sources, like banks. Someone always pays them off.

It is completely plausible that the school, having difficulty recruiting or keeping American teachers, to offer teacher recruitment incentives like payment of outstanding student loans in exchange for service commitments. That is done all the time, for many people, encompassing all kinds of careers.

The money used to pay off such loans always comes from private sources.

"Who do you think you are al, the Master of this thread, screw you!!"

Aw...now, don't be mad. Just stick to relating truths that you can back up and you will not get cyber-slapped.

"I don't need a link, its kept secret, i do believe the people who has done business with them."

I knew that one was coming. "It's all a big secret."

Lady, you are so full of crap, that it's oozing from your pores.

July 1, 2012 at 6:50 p.m.
alprova said...

potcat wrote: "I suggest we drop this and move on."

Of course you do. You drop a turd into the room, then you refuse to clean it up, and now you want to move on. There's a video making its way around the web of another woman doing the same thing in a grocery store.

http://www.killsometime.com/videos/7999/Woman-Poops-In-Grocery-Store-Aisle

"Nothing you or al can say that will make me or a billion other fool's and moron's who believe otherwise."

OMG. Never before has such a true statement ever been typewritten into this forum. And you typed it.

July 1, 2012 at 6:57 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Potcat,

I've never met anyone that believes what you believe. You aren't in a majority. Everything you have tried to argue has been a blatant lie. Every single claim has been shown to be false. And now that you have been called out, you don't even have the guts to admit you were wrong. Or maybe you are just THAT stupid.

I'll say it again for good measure:

You can become a naturalized citizen in basically any country in the world. I've said that several times now and showed you the proof. And basically anyone can become a citizen in the US as well.

July 1, 2012 at 7:27 p.m.
potcat said...

You two are crazy and can't give it up. Call me all the names you can think of, it does'nt change the fact that you are wrong and i am right.

You never answered the Turk situation in Nashville and the federal and state student loans being wiped clear. I'm guessing you can't find a link to that one, and of course, i am lying.

July 2, 2012 at 3:49 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Potcat,

Lol! You're right, you are lying!

July 2, 2012 at 7:58 p.m.
potcat said...

LOL, like to twist it don't you. You are good at that! How about the Turks in Nash, oh i meant Turksville and my in/ law getting her federal and state student loans in the tens of thousands of $ just disappear, if she will stay at that public school. I suppose thats a lie also. Can you not find a link about it, liar???

July 3, 2012 at 1:22 p.m.
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