published Thursday, May 24th, 2012

Suing for faith, freedom

The Obama administration's hostility to at least some expressions of faith can be palpable at times, and not only in Obama's deeply insulting pre-presidential declaration that blue-collar workers "cling" to religion because they are "bitter" about the economy.

A casual, though telling, remark such as that pales next to his demand that religiously affiliated charities, hospitals, schools and such offer their employees health care plans that include free abortion-inducing drugs, sterilization and birth control -- even if that violates their most fundamental beliefs and teachings.

The organizations naturally object.

Their objections are not about preventing women from obtaining contraceptives. Employees of the organizations still can get contraception by other means and use it at will. Rather, the groups are attempting to uphold the principle that they cannot be forced to sabotage their own teachings by becoming the agent through which birth control is provided.

Up to now, it had been thought that that principle was reinforced by an impenetrable layer of constitutional concrete. But the Constitution has proved an especially pliable thing to this administration, and when basic liberties were pitted against the president's desire to impose the myriad regulations of ObamaCare on a range of unwilling parties, ObamaCare won hands down.

That disturbing stand has brought us to where we are today: with a majority of the states having sued to have ObamaCare overturned and with more than 40 Catholic organizations and dioceses filing a dozen lawsuits this past Monday over the contraceptive mandate.

The Supreme Court is expected to rule on the state litigation in June. If the court upends ObamaCare, it could eliminate the need for the Catholic organizations' lawsuits.

But it is understandable that the groups would not want to wait around in hopes that the high court will strike down the law in the earlier case. At stake is their ability to continue providing charitable services at all. Millions of Americans who rely on their excellent work would suffer if the organizations had to shut down in order not to deny their faith by offering health care plans that include services which starkly undermine their teachings.

"Time is running out, and our valuable ministries and fundamental rights hang in the balance, so we have to resort to the courts now," said New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The president of the Catholic-affiliated University of Notre Dame, the Rev. John Jenkins, was no less blunt.

He wrote: "[I]f one Presidential Administration can override our religious purpose and use religious organizations to advance policies that undercut our values, then surely another Administration will do the same for another very different set of policies, each time invoking some concept of popular will or the public good, with the result these religious organizations become mere tools for the exercise of government power, morally subservient to the state, and not free from its infringements. If that happens, it will be the end of genuinely religious organizations in all but name."

Jenkins can scarcely be dismissed as an unbending critic of the president. In 2009, he gave Obama an honorary degree at Notre Dame, despite heavy opposition from many Catholics. So it would seem obvious that his opposition to the birth control mandate is principled rather than merely political.

The liberty of all Americans -- not only Catholics -- is on the line, and the latest lawsuits highlight afresh the stunning assault on the free exercise of religion that ObamaCare plainly represents. Anyone who takes constitutional freedoms seriously should hope that efforts to overturn the law prevail.

87
Comments do not represent the opinions of the Chattanooga Times Free Press, nor does it review every comment. Profanities, slurs and libelous remarks are prohibited. For more information you can view our Terms & Conditions and/or Ethics policy.

Suing for the right to make the law comply with THEIR demands.

Thanks, but no thanks. The liberty of Americans is threatened, by a corrupt church that wants to dictate to us what laws we have.

Really, is the Catholic Church going to screw millions of Americans because they don't get their way? Because objective reasoning and analysis tells us that provision of birth control and other contraceptives is better for society than their standard which treats all of them as anathemas to be banned?

Right, thanks Catholic Church, exactly how many women did you have making this decision? Oh wait, it was just a bunch of old men ordering things be done their way, or the highway?

Are you sure you know who's the tyrant here?

PS, how many of those Norte Dame football games have commercials on them which aren't compatible with the Catholic faith? Oh, you don't care as long as the checks from NBC are good?

Huh.

May 24, 2012 at 12:36 a.m.
jazzman said...

The church should be concerned with the trials of the pedophile priests.,and the 'cover up' of those pedophile priests by the hierarchy of the church.

Too bad the church doesn't sue the frauds like Jim & Tammy Baker, Ted Haggard and the rest of that miserable lot who drain money from those confused believers to support their multi-million dollar lifestyles.

May 24, 2012 at 1:35 a.m.
LibDem said...

Threatening to withhold charitable services from millions of Americans sounds a little petulant. Maybe these old men need to mature a little.

May 24, 2012 at 8:08 a.m.
Hilltopp said...

The Catholic church has a long record of being wrong.

May 24, 2012 at 8:14 a.m.
conservative said...

"My Muslim faith" Obamination is just practicing his faith in opposing any religion but his own. However he has gone from verbal contempt for Christianity to implementation of mandates contrary to the faith of many Catholics.

Many electoral votes in those northern states where a lot of Catholics reside. Hehehe.

May 24, 2012 at 8:29 a.m.
TinaFrench said...

The major problem I have with the article is the misleading title. It should read, "Suing for Catholic faith, restrictions."

May 24, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.
Easy123 said...

58% of Catholics want insurance companies to cover contraception. What argument does the Catholic church have? Archaic, anti-women's rights dogma? Where in the Bible does it ban contraception? If you don't support contraception then don't use it. But most women do use it. Why do they never interview women about this? It's always male priests that get to voice their opinions. Catholics and the religious Right have no argument here.

Conservative, once again, nothing you said is factual. Keep up the good work!

May 24, 2012 at 10:05 a.m.

Why aren't all of you progressives arguing for the separation of church and state? This law clearly tramples that separation by regulating church run organizations.

May 24, 2012 at 10:23 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Because the church run organizations are undermining human rights, women's rights.

May 24, 2012 at 11:24 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

FPSE, when the church takes it upon itself to enter the market as either a for-profit or non-profit enterprise and offer its services in the public arena, it forfeits its "rights" to play by its own exclusionary rules. It is then subject to the same policies and regulations that every other business must abide by. This is not a matter "assault" on religion; this is a matter of the Catholic church over-reaching and trying to enforce its archaic beliefs on the public. If the clown Pope and his pedophiliac minions who kiss his feet want to cling to the stupid and out-of-touch belief that birth control is a "sin," then let them and those stupid enough to even give a rat's ass what those pompous old relics think or say stay true to their belief all day long and twice on Sundays if they want to, as long as they do it within the confines of their church or homes. This is clearly a case of the tail (the Catholic church) wagging the dog.

May 24, 2012 at 12:32 p.m.
conservative said...

Easy123 said....

"Conservative, once again, nothing you said is factual. Keep up the good work!"

Everything I wrote was factual. Obamination on national TV made the "my Muslim faith" statement. Those words came out of his mouth. I put Obamination's statement in quotes so that the readers would know they were HIS words. Once again what I wrote was factual. Now you know.

The Muslim faith is so opposed to to any other that adherents call for killing "infidels" who are not Muslim. Furthermore the writer of this article correctly noted his contempt for Christianity with his "deeply insulting pre-presidential declaration that blue-collar workers "cling" to religion because they are "bitter" about the economy." Obamination said this. Once again what I wrote was factual. Now you know.

Obamination deliberately offended all of Christianity with the mandate that health care plans include free abortion-inducing drugs, sterilization and birth control. Why do you think Catholics filed suit? Are you completely ignorant of this fact? Once again what I wrote was factual. Now you know.

I wrote "Many electoral votes in those northern states where a lot of Catholics reside." Once again what I wrote was factual. Now you know.

Finally you childishly wrote "nothing you said is factual", but made no attempt to refute me. Truth can not be refuted. Now even you know.

May 24, 2012 at 1:05 p.m.

Right, because the church is telling these women she can't go somewhere else for their birth control. The church isn't denying them the right to anything. They just aren't supplying a service they are morally oppossed to. Entering the public domain doesn't forfeit those rights at all. Your confusing premise that a private group is ruled by the public doesn't make any sense at all. You seem to think these people are being forced into these schools. It is quite the opposite.

May 24, 2012 at 2:15 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

FlyingPurpleSheepleEater said... Your confusing premise that a private group is ruled by the public doesn't make any sense at all.

It is fairly simple. See if you can keep up. If the church takes tax payer dollars, which they do, because they are tax exempt, then they play by the rules. The church has every right to their opinion, just not my tax dollars. Tax the churches and this argument will be over.

May 24, 2012 at 2:25 p.m.

Tax exemption means they aren't taxed and therefore aren't taking tax dollars. Your argument was weak at best. I don't want to keep up with that kind of faux logic.

May 24, 2012 at 2:31 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

I would venture to guess that most of you spouting the conservative right wing points do not realize that "church" is not just christian. ALL churches, ALL religions can qualify for tax exempt status. So your tax dollars are going in support of all these religions. I think all religions should be taxed. Why not? Then they can stand proud on their ideologies whether I like them or not. We can thank GW for the faith-based mess. The catholic fish heads are just being loud about this right now because they want the attention away from their pedophiles and baby makers.

9-Year-Old Catholic Raped, Excommunicated for Abortion; Rapist Still Catholic

May 24, 2012 at 2:43 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

FlyingPurpleSheepleEater said... Tax exemption means they aren't taxed and therefore aren't taking tax dollars. Your argument was weak at best. I don't want to keep up with that kind of faux logic.

Then you really do not have an understanding of things, so your opinion is only half baked.

With your logic, those citizens not paying any taxes, like grandma and the disabled, are not being paid for by you and me. Can't have it both ways. Either you are or you are not, which is it?

May 24, 2012 at 2:49 p.m.

JOW, Your twisted view of taxes is one of the huge issues in this country. Just because churches don't pay taxes doesn't make them receivers of tax money. That is twisted logic. It is a twisting of facts to try to prove a false argument. You don't sound like you are a member of any church, but if you pay attention, there are scandals in all churches amoung the clergy. ALL churches are made up of imperfect people.

May 24, 2012 at 2:52 p.m.

If grandma and the disabled aren't receiving any money from the government like the churches aren't, then they aren't being paid for by you and me whether they pay any taxes or not. It is simple.

May 24, 2012 at 3:03 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

My twisted views of taxes are used every day in the business world. LOL But ok. I will keep my twisted views of taxes and you can think that tax exempt means they don't recieve or take any taxes. Tax exempt entities "take" tax dollars all the time. Sometimes, the exemption is a prerequisite to the grant, gift, contract, etc. It all boils down to tax susidies, exemptions, and whos pocket what goes in.

So basically a church does not pay taxes. The preacher does not pay taxes. The church and the preacher live off of other people's money, whether congragation or tax payer. The church uses federal or state dollars and grants to build bigger churches, schools, gymnasiums, etc, or to fund programs, such as the catholic health centers. And that is why they must follow the rules, they take other peoples money, whether in the form of a grant or gift, or in the form of a tax credit. If they only took money from their own, such as tithes, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I know I am generalizing. There are many good churches that do not fall in this generalization, but most do. And whether I am connected to a church or not is really none of your business. All people are human and we all make mistakes. It is how we learn. But if you want a civil conversation regarding meaningful issues, and you want to be taken seriously, you will have to change how you relate to people that don't think just like you do. You might start by stopping the labeling. Each time you cut someone else down, you do it to yourself. You know this and yet you continue to flap the air with hate. Why is that peepleeater?

May 24, 2012 at 3:27 p.m.
conservative said...

Today Just One Woman writes...

"But if you want a civil conversation regarding meaningful issues, and you want to be taken seriously, you will have to change how you relate to people that don't think just like you do. You might start by stopping the labeling. Each time you cut someone else down, you do it to yourself. You know this and yet you continue to flap the air with hate. Why is that peepleeater?"

Yesterday Just One Woman writes....

"Squats to pee? Surely you are not comparing a bad man to a woman? How offensive! I squat to pee, and I will argue that mine is tougher and stronger than any pair, especially when compared to Republicon men! How about picking a new comparison like maybe slugs, or rabid dogs. That is what comes to mind when I read Jonesass, Thimbo, Conservative, etc. I certainly don't think of people that squat to pee."

May 24, 2012 at 3:45 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

LOL I agree Con. Sometimes this forum gets the best of me. That is why I lay off of it sometimes. I think there are many "sayings" that are demeaning to women. I should have left it at that. But I think you will have to admit that you have been one of the worst for labeling without having an understanding of what you are talking. At least mine was labeled from "what I think" instead of your "liebrals". You call people liars when you have nothing, and selectively quote the bible. I make mistakes all the time. I don't mind that. I am open to the fact that I might be wrong, so I study and research. You look for others to screw up so you can call them names.

May 24, 2012 at 4:03 p.m.

You can't flap the air with written words on a computer forum. A church isn't supposed to be a business. Churches aren't supposed to receive money from members in order to turn a profit. If a church is run that way, it should in fact be taxed, because it is in business to make money instead of to enlighten or teach. If a church is receiving federal funding at one of it's buildings or outreach efforts, then that effort should be subject to federal law. That isn't the case here. The HHS mandate forces everyone to cover birth control irregardless of any tax money received and that is the real problem. Even if the Catholic church refused all further federal funding, this mandate would force them to cover birth control against their beliefs.

The reason I concluded that you don't attend a church is because you don't seem to understand that tithes given to a church have already been taxed. The church isn't a business and isn't receiving those funds in exchange for anything. They are voluntary gifts. They aren't profits or earnings to be taxed. They are non-profit donations. Taxing churches would open all non-profit organizations, even left leaning ones up to taxation. Maybe planned parenthood should be taxed since they receive federal funds. How about NOW? You can't have it both ways.

May 24, 2012 at 4:09 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

I am not going to argue with someone unarmed. The church is a business. No question about that. This birth control thing is not about actually providing the birth control. It is about providing coverage on the insurance policy they have for their employees. Employees of a "business". I understand taxes allright. Yes, tithes have already been taxed,... or not, depending on the person's taxables. Things are double taxed all the time. It is taxed when earned, taxed when spent, then sometimes taxed when counted. And definately taxed with death. Taxing churches would NOT open all exempt entities to taxes, just the churches. It is coming, so whatever you need to do to prepare your church, you should. And it will be the christians that do it. Hide and watch. The christians will give up their tax status when they see that ALL religions get the same treatment, including the Flying Speghetti Monster, the muslim churches and schools, as well as any satanic churches, just to name a few. They will bite off their nose to spite their face.

And just so you know, there are a few churches that are for profit. Some claim to be non-profit, but make money. Some claim to make money from the get go. A particular church, (I think in Kansas), got upset that an athiest sign was close to their church. Turns out they owned the billboard so they had the sign taken down. Funny thing was they were not claiming the profit from the sign in their non profit exemption and got busted.

The real problem is that we want birth control coverage available to us...period. And people like you, that have absolutely no business in any decision regarding my or any other women's birth control, want to make decisions for the rest of us based on what you think is "the only correct way". You just don't get to make that decision for me.

You want to cover the erection, but not the protection.

May 24, 2012 at 5:10 p.m.
conservative said...

Just One Woman...

I use the word Lieberal because Liberalism is all about lying. I have many dictionaries in my house in which the meaning of liberal is defined most often with the words "change" and "reform" which is change.

There are truths that are Biblical, spiritual, moral and these are absolute. There are other absolute truths in math, science, chemistry etc which usually don't get involved in political discussions, There are family values and American values which have served this country well. I want to CONSERVE them all! Do I always conserve or always practice them ? No I don't. I am a sinner but I am saved from the penalty of my sins which is eternal death because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior!

Liberalism rejects most of the truths which I listed. Liberalism rejects these truths because they exchange these truths for a lie. That's why I use the word Lieberalism.

Some important truths that Lieberals exchange for a lie are creation, (God created the heavens and earth, evolution exchanges that truth for a lie), human life ( God created us, evolution exchanges that truth for a lie), pregnancy is human life, (Lieberals exchange that truth for a lie), God says homosexuality is sin, an abomination, (Lieberals say it is genetic, or deny it as sin or some other nonsense and exchange that truth for a lie), marriage is between a man and a woman ( Lieberals change the definition of marriage to cover and deny their sin). I hope that is enough.

Do you see why I correctly use the word Lieberal? Liberalism is all about exchanging truth for a lie.

However, God never changes, His word never changes nor ever will!

BTW I have a complete understanding of what I am talking about as I just demonstrated.

May 24, 2012 at 5:18 p.m.
AlmostAmanda said...

Conservative, you use the word "lieberal" because you are childish and cannot stand to show the most basic respect to anyone who dares to disagree with you. It's hardly what I would call Christian behavior. As for your blanket generalizations, they are just further proof of your own shameful ignorance.

May 24, 2012 at 6:19 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

conservative said... BTW I have a complete understanding of what I am talking about as I just demonstrated.

You demonstrated that you will use words and twist them to make your justification for what you believe is truth. Just because someone believes differently than you does not a liar make. I do not see why you take the word "liberty" and make it bad in your eyes. Liberty has the same root word as liberal. But hey, free speech and all. I do not mind you being wrong, all day long.

AlmostAmanda said... Conservative, you use the word "lieberal" because you are childish and cannot stand to show the most basic respect to anyone who dares to disagree with you. It's hardly what I would call Christian behavior. As for your blanket generalizations, they are just further proof of your own shameful ignorance.

Almost Amanda pegged you.

May 24, 2012 at 6:43 p.m.
conservative said...

AlmostAmanda...

I use the word Lieberal to make a point. Those who understand liberals and liberalism also know that the positions they hold and policies they push are lies. Trust me lie is in their thoughts when they use the words liberal and liberalism. Lieberalism is totally opposed to truth. I loathe Lieberalism intensely. However that doesn't mean I hate the person.

Lieberals are also hypocrites for they not only hate Conservatism but Conservatives as well. They constantly spew hate for the God who created them as well as Conservatives. They constantly call me vulgar names while falsely accusing me of the same.

Read their words today and some of their past comments. If you are honest you will see the words of hate for God and myself as well as others who they believe to be Conservative who comment here. I just use the word Lieberal and they identify themselves as such by their hateful comments toward me.

BTW they like you don't refute what I write, just criticize, spew hate, and falsely accuse.

May 24, 2012 at 6:55 p.m.
conservative said...

JustOneWoman....

Why can't you refute what I write?

May 24, 2012 at 7:01 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

Liberty The Latin words "Liber," "Libera," and "Liberum" -- with a Long I -- came from the root meaning, "to pour." From this, we get the word "Liberty" http://www.westegg.com/etymology/

The idea, with its roots in English and Scottish political philosophy of the 18th century, speaks up for individual rights and freedoms, and challenges over-mighty government and other forms of power. In that sense, traditional English liberalism favoured small government—but, crucially, it viewed a government’s efforts to legislate religion and personal morality as sceptically as it regarded the attempt to regulate trade (the favoured economic intervention of the age). This, in our view, remains a very appealing, as well as internally consistent, kind of scepticism. http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/perspective/perspective-i-liberal/

"The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) indicates that the word liberal has long been in the English language with the meanings of "befitting free men, noble, generous" as in liberal arts; also with the meaning "free from restraint in speech or action", as in liberal with the purse, or liberal tongue, usually as a term of reproach but, beginning 1776–88 imbued with a more favorable sense by Edward Gibbon and others to mean "free from prejudice, tolerant." (snip) "The American War of Independence established the first nation to craft a constitution based on the concept of liberal government, especially the idea that governments rule by the consent of the governed." http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061017085458AAL8zm9

May 24, 2012 at 7:02 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Conservative,

The Bible says a lot of backward things. God didn't write the Bible by the way. And unless you heard an audible voice from "god" then god didn't "say" anything. Why do you accept the Bible as true? What proof do you have? Evolution is true. Your defiance of this fact is patently ignorant to the facts and evidence that all point to evolution. There is no proof of a creator. Our parents created us. God's view on homosexuality is immoral. I thought you said God created us? Are you saying his great creation is an abomination? Definitions change. Get over it. Someone else's sexual preference doesn't affect you. For you to claim these beliefs is pure ignorance. You would fit in great in the 2nd century. Get our from whatever rock you are under. Read a science book. Read criticisms of your religion. Investigate what you believe. Because I assure you that the results will baffle you. You obviously haven't read the whole Bible because you pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe and apply to your life. Christianity doesn't work that way. You are a heretic in your own backward, fairy tale religion.

May 24, 2012 at 7:03 p.m.
JustOneWoman said...

conservative said... JustOneWoman....

Why can't you refute what I write?

Don't have to. You do it all by yourself.

May 24, 2012 at 7:06 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Conservative,

Just as an aside, when you make a claim like "Liberals tell lies" or "Liberals are mean". You can't then say, "Prove me wrong" or in your case "Why can't you refute what I say?". That isn't how things work. When you assert something, the burden of proof is on YOU. Not the other person to prove you wrong. Nothing you say is factual or has any evidence to back it up. Especially your arguments that use the Bible as evidence. On the whole, you have proved nothing. You just make unsupported statements. And just so we are clear, no one spews more hate or falsely accuses more than you. You name call and tell more lies on here than most of the other posters combined.

Finally, it is saddening that you believe many of the ideas posted against your position to be "liberal". They really can't be labeled as such. Most of the ideas you call "liberal" are ideas based on the Constitution, logic, reason, and equality. But I guess that flies in the face of everything the religious Right believes.

May 24, 2012 at 7:16 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Did Obama say he was Muslim?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimfaith.asp

Yet another lie from "Liar for Jesus" conservative

May 24, 2012 at 7:19 p.m.
AlmostAmanda said...

Absolutely there are some people who call themselves liberal who are quite hateful towards conservatives and conservative politics. I'll admit that I have had some less than mature and thoughtful moments when debating with conservatives. But can you honestly say with a straight face that there aren't conservatives who show the same kind of behavior? There are partisan fools on both sides, but I fail to see how using a term like "lieberal" makes you any better than those you criticize.

As for your claims to know all liberals, you are sadly mistaken. Liberals, like conservatives, are a varied bunch. Liberals have a variety of ideas when it comes to religion, abortion, evolution (for which, btw, there is a great deal of scientific evidence and does not unilaterally conflict with the idea of intelligent design), marriage equality, etc. And, as JOW pointed out, disagreeing with you does not make one a liar. Of course, your most egregious claim is that liberals hate God. That is a flat out like and you know it. A number of liberals - myself included - are proud Christians or followers of other faiths.

See, Conservative, you make my point for me. You are drawing blanket generalizations based on a very small group of people who identify as liberal. If you are offended by name calling, why do you engage in it? You claim that liberals hate conservative politics, but it's okay for you to "loathe" liberalism? What is the difference? Have some standards.

Also, I spewed no hate, and I did refute your claims. You're just too stuck on your own self-righteousness to see it.

May 24, 2012 at 7:23 p.m.
conservative said...

JustOneWoman...

Wow! what a grown up response. You must have been first in your debate class.

May 24, 2012 at 7:24 p.m.
conservative said...

Obamination made reference to "my Muslim faith" to George Stephanop0lous on the ABC network and that's the truth.

May 24, 2012 at 7:39 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Read the whole cite, conservative. You are wrong.

May 24, 2012 at 7:47 p.m.
yaffay said...

The church forfeits it right to enforce religious standards when it chooses to engage in public sector funding. Hospitals affliated with religious organizations can't accept payments from federal, state, and local programs like Medicare, Medicaid, TN Care, Peach Care, etc. and then employ discriminatory practices against their employees.

Republicans, the Catholic church, and those on the political far right are trying to drag women back at least 50 years. Enough!

May 24, 2012 at 8:04 p.m.
conservative said...

AlmostAmanda....

You couldn't possibly have paid attention to what I wrote to you at 5:18.

Do you hate lying? If you do then you to would hate liberalism just as I do for the reasons I explained at 5:18.

I mentioned several lies liberals spread and believe dealing with God and creation and even the specific sin of homosexuality.

You couldn't possibly be a student of Scripture and not agree with the Scriptures. Liberals don't believe Scripture.

People who don't have a life of obedience to God hate God no matter their claims otherwise.

You say that you are a Christian, how do you know that, what is your proof?

May 24, 2012 at 8:23 p.m.
Easy123 said...

In case you missed it Conservative,

The Bible says a lot of backward things. God didn't write the Bible by the way. And unless you heard an audible voice from "god" then god didn't "say" anything. Why do you accept the Bible as true? What proof do you have? Evolution is true. Your defiance of this fact is patently ignorant to the facts and evidence that all point to evolution. There is no proof of a creator. Our parents created us. God's view on homosexuality is immoral. I thought you said God created us? Are you saying his great creation is an abomination? Definitions change. Get over it. Someone else's sexual preference doesn't affect you. For you to claim these beliefs is pure ignorance. You would fit in great in the 2nd century. Get our from whatever rock you are under. Read a science book. Read criticisms of your religion. Investigate what you believe. Because I assure you that the results will baffle you. You obviously haven't read the whole Bible because you pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe and apply to your life. Christianity doesn't work that way. You are a heretic in your own backward, fairy tale religion.

May 24, 2012 at 8:50 p.m.
conservative said...

You are the one who hasn't read the Bible my friend. You are fooling no one who has. You have not studied the Bible or even read the Bible.

May 24, 2012 at 8:58 p.m.
Easy123 said...

I've read it cover to cover and taken courses in Old and New Testament and Apologetics. I went to a Christian high school and a Christian college for two years. I was raised baptist. Sorry, but I've done more research and study on Christianity and the Bible than you have ever thought about Conservative.

May 24, 2012 at 9:31 p.m.
conservative said...

2 Timothy 3:16-17 : All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Notice the author of Scripture.

Go ahead, keep digging a hole for yourself

May 24, 2012 at 9:47 p.m.
Easy123 said...

So you are using the Bible to argue that the Bible is true? "Why is the Koran true?"... "Because the Koran says so." or "Why is the book of Mormon true?"... "Because the Book of Mormon say so.". But in your case it's more like this:

"Who wrote the Bible?"..."God." "How do you know?"..."God said so"
"How do you know that?"..."It's in the Bible."

This argument doesn't hold up. You don't even know who authored the Bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't write the Gospels. And it is unlikely that Moses didn't write the Old Testament. These books are copies of copies of copies written about 100-200 years after the actual events mentioned in their books.

But now that you mentioned it, why don't you follow the laws mentioned in the Old Testament? You just said all Scripture was divinely inspired. Why is it that you ignore the law presented in the Old Testament but still cling to the 10 Commandments? You can't argue that Jesus made a "new covenant" in the New Testament because Matthew 5:17 says exactly the opposite. I'm sure you eat shellfish, stone your children/family, keep slaves, etc. Oh wait, you probably don't do that even though it is presented as LAW in your divinely inspired book.

May 24, 2012 at 10:02 p.m.
conservative said...

Genesis 1:1 : In the beginning GOD created the heaven and earth.

Notice that there was a creation, and that GOD was the creator. Now compare that with what you wrote.

Go ahead, keep digging yourself a hole.

May 24, 2012 at 10:12 p.m.
Easy123 said...

YOU CAN'T USE THE BIBLE AS PROOF THAT THE BIBLE IS TRUE! What makes that story more likely or true than any other creation story?

You obviously don't understand the intricacies of "hole digging". You are already in a hole. And you have been for years it seems.

May 24, 2012 at 10:21 p.m.
acerigger said...

Thanks for that link Ike.

"Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did Conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things...every one! So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, 'Liberal,' as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work, because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor." -- Matt Santos, The West Wing

May 24, 2012 at 10:57 p.m.
jazzman said...

Easy123 said... 'YOU CAN'T USE THE BIBLE AS PROOF THAT THE BIBLE IS TRUE! '

'conservative' can do exactly that, so can Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson and an ever expanding group of frauds and charlatans proclaiming anything and everything that conveniently fits into their own self indulgent brand of circular 'reasoning'.

..... but .... I think 'conservative' is just a simple online 'troll', making mischief., trying to have his own peculiar kind of fun.

May 25, 2012 at 12:48 a.m.
joneses said...

Could one of you left wing liberal loons explain to me why you are always attacking Christianity and the Christians belief in God but never attack Muslims and their beliefs in God. Both believe in the same God. Why is this?

Why do you support Hussein Obama dictating that churches go against their beliefs but then in the next breath you spout of the lie that the phrase separation of church and state is written in the U.S. Constitution. Another fine example of libtard/dummycrat left wing loon hypocrisy.

May 25, 2012 at 6:12 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

OK, joneses, since conservative hasn't addressed this, how about you? Is there a commandment against bearing false witness? Indeed, that is what conservative did, and when shown that he lied, refused to acknowledge. Do you agree, or do you support him in his "lying for Jesus"?

May 25, 2012 at 6:23 a.m.
AlmostAmanda said...

Conservative, I am a Christian because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and try to live my life according to his teachings. It is the height of arrogance to assume that you have the authority to question my faith because I do not see things your way. I will let the Lord decide if I am a good enough Christian, not you. Who are you to say what others believe or how they feel about God? Shame on you.

As for people not paying attention, I ask you these questions again:

  1. If you are offended by name calling, why do you engage in it?

  2. You claim that liberals hate conservative politics, but it's okay for you to "loathe" liberalism? What is the difference?

May 25, 2012 at 6:49 a.m.
joneses said...

lkeithlu

There is a commandment against bearing false witness. There is also a commandment that says, there will be no God put before me". It sounds like you are playing God by judging conservative. I have some news for you there is only one judge and you are not it. Have you not ever lied? Please do not lie by saying "no". I do not know what lie conservative told but I am sure everyone on this earth has "bared false witness". Does that make it right? No. Is it any of my business if conservative "bared false witness". No. is it any of yours? No. Is it any of my business when this pathological liar Hussein Obama "bares false witness". Yes, because when he does it impacts my life. If conservative bared false witness how does that impact your life? I find it amazing how you attack conservative for baring false witness and you give Hussein Obama a pass for doing same. Ask yourself, whose lies have the most impact on your life? Also, maybe you might want to check in with yourself and find out why you are so bothered by Christians that believe in something you think does not exist? Why are you so threatened by God if you do not think he exist? You are strange.

May 25, 2012 at 7:23 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

That was a whole lotta nothing, joneses. Do you support your fellow "conservative" in his claim about Obama? Are you also a "Liar for Jesus"?

I have when I was younger told an occasional lie. As an adult I try my best to be honest. Yes I have made mistakes, but when someone points it out to me I acknowledge it. Conservative committed the act of bearing (not baring) false witness against another, and when exposed, ignored it. Is this behavior becoming of Christians? Especially Christians that are so quick to a) judge others and b) assume they have the only path to righteousness and salvation?

This is not about beliefs, but about actions. Conservative's actions. Try again.

May 25, 2012 at 7:32 a.m.
librul said...

Hey Conservative, they've found another of your long lost cousins down in Argentina ... but apparently there aren't any remains of his rider or evidence of his saddle and bridle. Hee Haw!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/25/dinosaur-with-tiny-arms-unearthed-in-argentina/

May 25, 2012 at 7:48 a.m.
Hilltopp said...

Trying to talk to 'conservative' is trying to talk to a table. Makes points and then proves them with "absolute truths" that can't be proven.

It is an absolute truth that conservative is wrong.

May 25, 2012 at 8:07 a.m.
joneses said...

lkeithlu

Try again? I am not trying anything moron nor am I trying to convince you of anything. It actually sounds like you are judging Christians. You are a hypocrite just as you accuse Christians of being. I am only responsible for my beliefs of which you know nothing about. Your problem is you are showing your ignorance by stereotyping all Christians to be this evil thing you have created with your limited intellect. You see what I posted as a whole lot of nothing because I held you accountable and you cannot stand it. By saying you try your best to be honest you are admitting you are a liar just as you accuse conservative of being. Again, you are a hypocrite. Do I think Hussein Obama is a muslim? No. I do not think Hussein Obama has the ability to believe in anything greater than himself. I do not know if conservative lied or not about Stephanopolis making reference to Hussein Obama being a muslim. I do not know as I have not nor will I research this as it is not important to me, as again, I do not think Hussein Obama has the ability to believe in anything greater than himself. Do I believe you are a liar? Yes, because you admitted you are. Liar for Jesus? Do you know how stupid that sounds? Have I lied? You darn right I have just like you. Why do you find it so important to persuade everyone to believe as you? Why do you continue to attack something you do not believe exist? Answer that. For someone who does not believe in God you sure are intimidated by him.

May 25, 2012 at 8:09 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

You missed again, joneses. Did conservative bear false witness or not? I am not the one who is being held accountable here-I made no claims. You truly are a liar for Jesus, as well as a dodger.

I don't judge all Christians. I hold words of Christians like you up when you lie, misquote, judge others and otherwise behave "unChristian". But of course, you can't see the difference. Not surprising.

May 25, 2012 at 8:19 a.m.
joneses said...

To satisfy your sick obsession will you tell me what conservative bared false witness about stupid?

May 25, 2012 at 8:44 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Read the previous comments, joneses. I provided the source.

May 25, 2012 at 8:50 a.m.
joneses said...

Just as I thought you cannot show me what conservative said to make you judge him and all christians. Get your head out of your ass and get to work loser. You have shown you lack any intellect of understanding. You say you do not judge but that is exactly what you are doing. Not surprising coming from a pathetic, hypocritical, ignorant loser like you.

May 25, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Just as I thought you are too lazy and dishonest to scroll up and find it.

May 25, 2012 at 8:52 a.m.
joneses said...

Copy and paste what conservative said that started your sick obsession and I will answer you question. You need help.

May 25, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Find the "up" arrow and scroll up the same page to where conservative said Obama said "My Muslim faith". It is a quotemine and I posted a snopes article on it. If you can't do that much you truly are a scoundrel and a liar.

May 25, 2012 at 9:03 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joneses said : "Just as I thought you cannot show me what conservative said to make you judge him and all christians. Get your head out of your ass and get to work loser. You have shown you lack any intellect of understanding. You say you do not judge but that is exactly what you are doing. Not surprising coming from a pathetic, hypocritical, ignorant loser like you."

This is epic! Name calling and delusion at its finest.

May 25, 2012 at 9:08 a.m.
joneses said...

If what conservative said was wrong he either bared false witness or was mistaken. It is not my position to judge anyone as I have chosen to rise above you. Only he and God know the truth. If he did bare false witness then all he has to do is ask God for forgiveness and God will forgive him. It is that simple. In fact it is so simple it is sad your weak mind cannot understand this concept. The problem with you is you have no one to ask for forgiveness and that is why you are a miserable fool. It must be hard on you because you have chosen to carry around all your burdens. Your weak limited intellect is not able to understand this concept. I have compassion for the pathetic weak minded morsel of a human you have chosen to be. I am done with your sick obsession as I want to get some work done. Do your parents a favor by getting out of bed and clean up their house while they are at work to support your sorry ass. Later fool.

May 25, 2012 at 9:19 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Once again joneses,

Epic response. Epitome of projecting.

May 25, 2012 at 9:22 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

The prosecution rests. Not that you made me work very hard. So, you were using company time for your little dodging act, huh? I am retired, (and my house is fully mine) so my time is my own. Thanks for confirming everything I stated.

May 25, 2012 at 9:24 a.m.
joneses said...

Again you have not the intellect to understand a simple Christian truth. By the way, I can use all the company time I want because I own the company stupid. It is my guess you are one of those miserable libtards who did not have to courage to start their own business and settled for some low paying government job possibly operating a toll bridge somewhere. Now you regret your decision and feel like you have to ruin the lives of us who have made a very decent living by taking a risk. So you have a good day sitting in your little hell hole with whats left of your miserable little life. Checkmate!

May 25, 2012 at 9:58 a.m.
Easy123 said...

You always top your previous performances Joneses. Bravo! Everything you say is either made up or false. And you are getting pretty good at slander too. YAHTZEE!

May 25, 2012 at 10:08 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Joneses, you are too funny. Dishonest and a crank, but funny. You just can't help yourself. Just how am I "ruining people's lives"? How does my working for a church for 30 years constitute being a government employee "possibly operating a toll bridge"? (Not that this is a bad thing-someone has to do it). I live a very good life, thank you, as I was very careful with my finances for many years and now am comfortable.

Thanks for continuing to reveal yourself as a "Liar for Jesus".

May 25, 2012 at 10:14 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Ik,

Are you asserting that the words "My muslim faith" did not cross POTUS's lips? Or are you going with the excuse that he merely misspoke?

One of these is an outright falsehood. Regardless of whatever spin put on by Snopes those words absolutely did spill-out out of Odumdum's mouth.

You are usually a straight shooter, but if you are claiming that Odumass never said "My muslim faith", you are 100% incorrect. The assertion that those words did cross his lips is 100% factual.

See for yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGdkq...

As for the rest of this "discussion", the left is shooting its self in the foot with this line of attack on religion. Ya'll are alienating alot of people who previously believed the delusional notion that Marxo-Leftism is compatible with the traditional American understanding of liberty, religious and otherwise.

May 25, 2012 at 11:25 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

He said the words, Scotty, but not in the context implied by conservative. I think you know this, and do not count yourself among the birthers and other crazies who are looking for ANY evidence they can find that Obama is secretly muslim (as if that mattered)

I consider quotemining to be one of the more dishonest ways to make a point.

May 25, 2012 at 11:40 a.m.
joneses said...

lkeithlu

You worked for a church for 30 years and you have not a clue as to what I am talking about? Do you really think I believe you worked for a church for 30 years? Now it appears you are a liar but I am not judging as that is between you and God. Oops, I misspoke that is between you and you as you do not believe there is anything greater than you. Why do you try to force your belief that there is nothing greater than a man who came form a single cell on everyone? You keep spouting off about some Christians invoking their beliefs on others but you are doing the same. Like all libtards you are just another irrelevant hypocrite. Go eat something fat ass.

May 25, 2012 at 11:48 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joneses,

You are an idiot. Keep it up! You find 100 ways to say nothing. By the way, your statement about atheists or scientifically inclined people forcing their beliefs on others is false. Evolution is a fact. And atheism has no belief system. Saying atheism is a belief system is like saying bald is a hair style. Once again, you are patently ignorant. And your constant slander is proof of your unintelligence.

May 25, 2012 at 12:10 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

joneses, please show where I attempted to force my beliefs on anyone here. Of course you can't, which shows you are lying yet again. Tsk tsk. What would Jesus think?

PS He wouldn't be too impressed with your hateful potty mouth either. The church I worked for would disapprove, yes indeed.

May 25, 2012 at 12:25 p.m.
jazzman said...

joneses asked...

'attacking Christianity and the Christians belief in God but never attack Muslims and their beliefs in God. Both believe in the same God. Why is this?

'Attacking' is ..your.. characterization of highlighting some of the many hypocrisies of those who claim to be 'religious'. Whether one is a 'christian', muslim, or jew, or anything else for that matter, and advocates intolerance, violence, torture and death on behalf of the invisible beings they worship, it's pure hate and intolerance using the cover of 'religion'

re: 'Why are you so threatened by God if you do not think he exist?

maybe if 'christians' and 'conservatives' would stop trying to prevent americans they don't approve of from living freely and following their own choices in life, people might not feel threatened by those 'religious' folks in and out of government.

re: 'judging Christians.'

'Christians', like anyone else in America, can be 'judged' by what they say and advocate. For example, 'A North Carolina church pastor’s call for gays and lesbians to be fenced in so they can eventually die is not that far removed from any other crazed religious extremist found in other parts of the world.'

Falwell and Robertson blamed other Americans for 'god's vengeance' during the Sept 11th attacks, and for the deaths during hurricane Katrina. That is clearly religious mumbo jumbo and nonsense., both of them, I believe 'retracted' their statements later on.

re:: 'If he did bare false witness then all he has to do is ask God for forgiveness and God will forgive him. It is that simple.

the magic 'free pass' card for 'christians'.... say anything, then say all is 'forgiven'.

May 25, 2012 at 3:04 p.m.

Getting up to eighty posts, but if that last one is an example, I'll pass on bothering with the rest.

But has anybody researched the history of the Church and the law? They used to demand the right to conduct their own trials.

I wonder if they'll demand that "freedom" back. That sex abuse case isn't going well for them.

May 25, 2012 at 4:03 p.m.

Not at all, the EPA argued against a judicial trial before actual imposition of penalties.

Never against any judicial review at all.

Try to pay attention to what's really happening, not your distorted version.

May 25, 2012 at 4:42 p.m.
Easy123 said...

JonRoss,

I'd bet the house that you watch a lot of Fox News.

By the way, Nixon proposed the creation of the EPA. You act like this is Obama's brain child.

The EPA has done a lot of good. I know most republicans are anti-environment, but I'm sure you like having clean air to breathe and clean water to drink. You can thank the EPA for those things. But I could see how a dimwit like you might think government mandated clean air and water might be "fascist". I don't think you actually know what the word means.

May 25, 2012 at 7:31 p.m.

JonRoss, your overblown hyperbole tells me that you don't realize that you sound like a fool to me. Really, your professions of "blind worship" are nothing more than a sign that you obviously don't want to respect anybody, just make up things that you can use to bash them. That's not going to win you an argument, it's going to show you don't care about respecting anybody else. It shows you're not genuinely interested in discussion but rather in making demagoguery the order of the day.

And you know who wants to manipulate healthcare? The Catholic Church, with their support of conscience clauses and defunding of Planned Parenthood. Never noticed that, did you?

May 25, 2012 at 7:47 p.m.
jazzman said...

JonRoss said... 'It's all breaking this afternoon all over....'

This report does make for an interesting comparison between Willard & Pres. Obama during their younger days......

Obama smoked 'pot'.

Willard, and his gang... stalked, ...hunted down,.... and tortured a classmate.

May 26, 2012 at 1:49 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Reader Beware, Many Thousands of People Use the Presumption That

http://www.snopes.com Provides Infallible Facts 100% of the Time.

This Is A Step of Faith on Their Part-They Are Indeed Religious.

Ken Orr

May 28, 2012 at 7:47 p.m.
Easy123 said...

You're a fool.

May 29, 2012 at 2:25 p.m.
please login to post a comment

videos »         

photos »         

e-edition »

advertisement
advertisement

Find a Business

400 East 11th St., Chattanooga, TN 37403
General Information (423) 756-6900
Copyright, Permissions, Terms & Conditions, Privacy Policy, Ethics policy - Copyright ©2014, Chattanooga Publishing Company, Inc. All rights reserved.
This document may not be reprinted without the express written permission of Chattanooga Publishing Company, Inc.